Coil bulb experiment

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Baoh

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I spoke with one of my fellows.

He recommended that I obtain two lots with three replicates per lot or an even wider number of lots for any given light type to spread the variability around and build confidence. I will work this part out.

I figure I would use an MVB as a well-accepted comparator. I am thinking the Exo Terra Solar Glo 160W. I would naturally obtain multiples.

For the coil type(s), I would use the Repti-Glo 2.0, 10.0, and/or 200 Intense. Maybe also the 5.0, but I would rather keep this to a maximum of three models in the class and brand. Preferably only two. I was thinking either the 2.0 and 10.0 or the 5.0 and 10.0 to keep this concise. I would like feedback on which two you would pick and a rationale as to why those two. I am leaning towards 5.0 and 10.0 and the reason why is because I think 1) these would be among the most commonly purchased, as they are the most commonly stocked in the chain stores, and 2) because their UV outputs might be more relevant to tortoise keeping (whether forest or savannah species) habits/usage.

The point of this is to determine a significant difference in the nature of outputs between the oft-maligned CFL-type UVB bulbs versus the oft-venerated MVB-type UVB bulbs with the MVBs serving mainly as comparative agents.

I was also going to consider burn-in time as a component with extended usage, but I realized that is not the point of what I am trying to determine. Loss of efficacy over the long term is not the crux of the discussion. As such, any time component will involve perhaps T=0, T=24hr, and maybe something like T=120hr.

Orientations will include at least parallel and perpendicular, but I may add something oblique because a number of folks/keepers may mount these via clamp lamps.

I will probably spread out the acquisition times and sources to try and avoid overlapping lots when I can, so procurement will be protracted.

I found one meter in storage and I have at least one at work. I will select which one I use based on calibration testing and potentially the specifications & capabilities for the units. I have three light boxes at work. I will probably choose the one which can be used to shield against incidental light best.

This will take some time (read: I will get to it when I get to it). Unless I am given a compelling reason, I will most likely stick with the 5.0 and 10.0 rationale I have given above.

Thread which sparked the idea:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-75785.html

I will eventually compose an actual protocol, too.
 

Yvonne G

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I'm glad to see someone taking this on, thank you!! We had an unofficial experiment going on a while back, trying to get the brand names of the coil bulbs each time a new member posted with baby tortoises and eye problems and they were using a coiled bulb, but that kind of fell by the wayside.
 

Baoh

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No problem. How do you feel about the 5.0 and 10.0 selection I made mention of?

That goes for everyone.
 

Team Gomberg

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Re: RE: Coil bulb experiment

Baoh said:
No problem. How do you feel about the 5.0 and 10.0 selection I made mention of?

That goes for everyone.

I like your reasoning for choosing those 2 for the experiments.

Heather
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Baoh

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Thinking further, the worst should be the one with the higher output, so going with just the 10.0 26W will allow me to select more lots for variability smoothing.

So MVB as above and 10.0 CFL UVB as above, but with more lots & bulbs.

While the two differing bulb strengths might give users more options if it ends up that the 10.0 model is a problem and the 5.0 model is not, I am looking more for a yes versus no answer with respect to the commonly claimed stuff already referenced. Likewise, if 10.0 is found non-problematic, I can avoid having wasted the study on the lesser bulb. If the 10.0 is found to be problematic, I can always add to the experiment. Stage-gating, in a sense.
 

Team Gomberg

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Out of curiosity, Baoh, do you currently use or have you in the past used coil bulbs on a regular basis for any of your personal animals?

Heather
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Baoh

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Team Gomberg said:
Out of curiosity, Baoh, do you currently use or have you in the past used coil bulbs on a regular basis for any of your personal animals?

Heather
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I have. I did not notice any trouble, but I have planted enclosures and light can be filtered a bit depending on where the hatchlings like to position themselves. I like MVBs more for a light+heat combo, though on one side and a CHE on the other these days in my tubs for the young ones.

For my adults during the winter months, I have them mounted overhead to provide general lighting and some small amount of UVB, as they are mounted quite high. No vision problems, and my animals include Burmese blacks and yellow foot tortoises, which have bigger eyes to see in forest shade, so I would imagine I would see a problem with them if one was going to surface from that particular setup.

So yes, I have used them in the past for all ages and I currently use them in a limited capacity for adults. I am curious to see what the results are after testing. I am spreading out my bulb purchases over time and multiple vendors to try and make sure I get a variety of lots.


TsarRescue said:
I'll be very interested in reading your results!

Thanks. It will be a while.
 

tortadise

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I do applaud the effort of taking this on. I am curious as to how the results vary upon conclusion. I ceretainly like your choice of bulb usage for the testing. The 5.0/10.0 seem to be a rather popular bulb amongst tortoises. I am curious though about your UV meter and its detailed readings. I wonder with all the "issues" at claim that these bulbs tend to cause. Is possibly caused by other UVC rays or something other. I dont know much about lights and the radiation waves and what they really do. I am going on a "asking stupid questions" binge.

I know the following bulbs produce this. Would be curious to know and find out what the CFL produces.

Examples of different bulbs not commonly used for UV. I think they all provide a certain positive to reptiles.

MVB- (Mercury Vapor Bulb)
UVC 184.45
UVC 253.7
UVA 365.4
Violet 404.7
Blue 435.8
Green 546.1
Yellow-Orange578.2

HPS- (High Pressure Sodium)
UVC178
UVC302
UVA425
Violet506
Blue495
Green570
Yellow-Orange598

MH- (Metal Halide)
UVC350
UVC407
UVA425
Violet475
Blue498
Green570
Yellow-Orange986

Excellent experiment. I am curious as to what results you find out.
Another question would be. Are you going to utilize an animal in an enclosure for the experiment or just use light boxes to determine UV exposure and readings of each said bulb?
 

Baoh

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Not going to use animals. It would require a great many to make that experiment meaningful/conclusive. I already have forty or so tortoises, most of which are relatively high-end. I may be adding another eleven to twenty-one animals in a bit, too, depending on how a negotiation works out. I do not want to add another hundred or two just to perform a different type of experiment. The animals I do have are already resource-intensive, but at least they are very profitable.
 

tortadise

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Baoh said:
Not going to use animals. It would require a great many to make that experiment meaningful/conclusive. I already have forty or so tortoises, most of which are relatively high-end. I do not want to add another hundred or two to perform a different type of experiment.

Understood. That is why I asked. That would be a barrage of test animals. Either way hope to see the results in the future. I however do not use these bulbs. I like the older tube bulbs.
 

Baoh

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A person I trust has great favor for the newer Arcadia tube bulbs.
 

tortadise

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Baoh said:
A person I trust has great favor for the newer Arcadia tube bulbs.

I have heard great things of those bulbs. Have not tried them myself. Perhaps with your availability of light boxes, and UV meter equipment a contribution could be added to this experiment to broaden the test bulbs. Unless of course your only wanting to test the said Coil Bulbs of course. It always makes me wonder which one really is the best. After all we can see results of neonate animals getting started off growing and apparently healthy. But really how much exposure is needed and what levels of rays and colors are utilized in chelonians is my question. Indoor enclosure versus outdoor wild depict two totally different aspects on tortoises. Even activity levels differ greatly. Burrows, plants hides, weather patterns. Where as captive enclosures show constants in little change in my opinion. So are we over giving UV in indoor environments or under? Here I go blabbing away.
 

Baoh

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I am mainly doing coiled CFL versus not for now. There are other FL bulbs I could test, too, but all of the negative claims I read about on here are with regard to the coiled ones, so I wanted to just test those versus a commonly accepted MVB choice.

Honestly, with the primary point of the UVB bulbs to be UVB and the primary point of UVB for reptiles being D3 production, I do not consider them necessary if adequate D3 is provided. They have other secondary benefits, too, but those other benefits could be provided with cheaper/simpler lighting options.
 

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It would be interesting and most useful to measure other things too. Par, etc. actual energy draw vs rated. UVA and UVB. Color spectrum, etc.

Unfortunately without a LOT of data it will be hard to tell if this data means much towards confirming or denying anything about anything.

It will be interesting. I too have used coil bulbs on many setups without problems. But I no longer do.


Baoh said:
I am mainly doing coiled CFL versus not for now. There are other FL bulbs I could test, too, but all of the negative claims I read about on here are with regard to the coiled ones, so I wanted to just test those versus a commonly accepted MVB choice.

Honestly, with the primary point of the UVB bulbs to be UVB and the primary point of UVB for reptiles being D3 production, I do not consider them necessary if adequate D3 is provided. They have other secondary benefits, too, but those other benefits could be provided with cheaper/simpler lighting options.

Isn't d3 metabolism from diet very poor? Particularly with non carnivorous species
 

FLINTUS

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I love the Arcadia stuff-I am currently using one of their MVBs, but the tubes are much better in light output and energy efficiency so will be switching to them soon like most of the people in the UK. I am currently experimenting with an old 5% UV coil bulb(Exo-Terra) with my hinges, it doesn't emit much light now as it is a good year and a half old-I used it for half a year with Cerezo, my youngest red foot, with no ill effect and his shell grew well with it-do bear in mind however it had a burn in time- now I sometimes use it if I have to have temporary set ups. By the time it hits the ground now, it is emitting just under 1.5%, and so far the hingebacks have loved it, and have become much more active as a result. Bear in mind this is a true forest species, with sensitive eyes. They do not like direct sunlight, when outside they tend to hide, but this bulb has gone down a treat with them, providing a bit of very dim light.
 

Baoh

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Jd3 said:
It would be interesting and most useful to measure other things too. Par, etc. actual energy draw vs rated. UVA and UVB. Color spectrum, etc.

Unfortunately without a LOT of data it will be hard to tell if this data means much towards confirming or denying anything about anything.

It will be interesting. I too have used coil bulbs on many setups without problems. But I no longer do.


Baoh said:
I am mainly doing coiled CFL versus not for now. There are other FL bulbs I could test, too, but all of the negative claims I read about on here are with regard to the coiled ones, so I wanted to just test those versus a commonly accepted MVB choice.

Honestly, with the primary point of the UVB bulbs to be UVB and the primary point of UVB for reptiles being D3 production, I do not consider them necessary if adequate D3 is provided. They have other secondary benefits, too, but those other benefits could be provided with cheaper/simpler lighting options.

Isn't d3 metabolism from diet very poor? Particularly with non carnivorous species



I will measure whatever the light meters I have access to can provide.

Re: D3 metabolism; it would appear that iguanas do well with it as a substitute (or addition) and I have never had a case of MBD in animals that I have not used UVB with but have used dietary D3 with.
 

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My own personal experiments were somewhat more concise.

Coil-type=place hand over right eye and stare intensely at light at varying distances. Drive around the block while continuing to keep hand over right eye. Count how many "bangs" you hear.

MVB=place hand over left eye and repeat procedure as described above. Drive around block once more, however, this time keep your hand over left eye. Count the "bangs".

Subtract the "bangs" from one another and divide by 1.618 (phi) and then add 5. That tells you which one is better.
 
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