Coconut Oil
- Thread starter glitch4200
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Yup. Censorship at it's finest. I don't understand why though. As far as I can tell no forum rules were broken. And if there was any broken I would like to know which ones. The moderator out there who did this want to explain this???
Ok focus on my lights. Tell me how after all that i have ranted about, how my lights are a problem. Outside the fact of what i have described in this thread about unfiltered infrared. The bulb is the problem.. The way the lamp is desinged is the problem ... If you are so knowledgeable as to the correct lighting scheme for all tortosies keepers to eliminate the problem i have described. PLEASE TELL ME. Because their is an epidemic of horrible outdated information being fed to the masses all over the world in tortoise groups and forums.. and the great thing is you can tell very easily, who listens to which school of information.
I am on so many groups and forums. and i see so many pyramided tortoises due to the one lamp , cool side warm side bs that is spread by certain people in the community... and these keepers are listening to them and wonder why their tortoises looks so dehydrated and dry. I am not talking on this forum. I am talking about many other groups outside this forum. I am constantly arguing with people about light distribution and making sure they use multple lamps to heat a tortoise instead of one lamp. The one lamp heat and one lamp uvb habitat is the main way people raise tortoises indoors. I see it CONSTANTLY.
Light distribution is critical... I understand that to the fullest degree. If you are going to sit her and critique me then do it. This is not a solved issue. As i see it all the time when people post their pictures of their tortoises and their habitats.... I can not tell you how many people have ONE single heat lamp and ONE uvb lamp in their tortoises habitat...and their habitats are sometimes bigger then my habitat which mine is not that big and it takes at least 2 heat lamps to bring my temps to atleast 85 f ambient and 95 basking. And they think that is perfectly fine.. But if you took a thermal imaging gun you would see exactly the same style of heating to the keratin as i am seeing when i do it... So what can be done... Hmmm.. sure raise the wattage up on your lamp bulb and raise the distance between the tortoise and the lamp to minimize the localized heating that is occuring from the bulb itself and its poor distribution of infrared. I would like to point out that CHE are the worst type of heating. IR-B and IR-C are horrible tissue heaters, as they do not have the penetration power like IR-A. Water filtered infrared A, is what we as keepers need to focus on to efficiently heat our tortoises. The alternative to this is heat the air and allow the tortoise to be heated by the surrounding air without any localized heating at all. Which requires very special precision. Something the average keeper is not doing... The pet shop tells them to buy a crap heat bulb and one uvb lamp and they are good to go. Thats it.
The heating patterns of these lamps no matter how you cut it are not made for tortoises. They are a source of detrimental qualities that the average keeper has no damn idea is effecting their tortoise on a biological level. And combine it with the outdated information of low humid environments and the push for not needing humidity or to worry about humidiity under artificial lamps is a huge problem from what i am seeing.
I want to be challenged.. And i have been challenged by this curiosity into tortoise habitats and lighting schemes. I want the best for my tortoises and if i can help other tortoises as well. I am going to do so. I know not everyone is going to agree with me. Hell you might even think that what i am doing is stupid. That is ok. I know deep down that i am onto something that can possible help tortoises all over. Either from the coconut oil idea or the more recent invention my friend and i have come up with to actually filter heat lamps. Its ok please laugh now at my amateur research. AND i do very much consider this research. As i have done so many research papers in college, which i do very well on as i have a scholarship for school in research psychology, I can tell you this idea, i have done more "research" on this idea then i have combining all my "research" papers in school. So please make no mistake about it. I will be persuing this at a more scholarly level. As i know a forum is not a place to be all "scientific" and proper. When i started this i had no idea i would get so involved into this.. I had no idea it would lead me to inventing something very cool, or allowing me to become passionate about such things as tortoise care and preservation. It was all discovered. Here. From started a stupid thread on coconut oil. So please don't think for a minute that I am going to allow any negativity or criticism or disbelief in my idea to slow me down from achieving what it is i want to in this part of my life.
OK. Back to being serious. Am I missing something or what. Glitch is saying that putting coconut oil on stops the intense hot spot from a bulb, this in turn stops uneven growth of the carapace. i.e pyramiding. Am I right up to now? Some keepers require a basking spot, right. So if a tort for example requires 100f basking spot we provide a hot area with a spot bulb. This gives the effect of the sun but creates a hot spot on the carapace. So we need an even temperature around the tort of 100f. I think this can not be achieved with a bulb for heat and light. The light source needs to be uvb but no heat and the heat source needs to be as far away from the tort as possible to create an ambiant at 100f and no light. And not a hot spot. Alternatively lots of smaller watt heat sources closer but spaced out. My CHE gives an ambient of 90f with no hot spot at one end for my reds, and my uvb provides the light. Time will tell if it works. Although I'm sure there are many other things to take into account for smooth growth. Humidity,diet,exercise,natural sun. Etc. @glitch2000. I take my hat off to you for your commitment, and I hope you prove something good for torts out of this. If just 1 little thing comes out if this it will have been worth it..
No it does not "stop" hot spots... my theory and idea is that it allows it to be spread out more evenly instead of localized.. coconut oil acts as a matrix between the harmful rays and the tortoise. It has refraction properties. I would bet 100$ you would see the worst hot spots from a CHE, as a CHE is emitting HIGH levels of IR-B and IR-C. and very little IR-A. This is not good. I will do some imaging of it and show you.. And ill show how bad localized heating is from a Ceramic emitter. If a tortoise is basking under a ceramic emitter my theory is that it is creating the worst of the localized heating because the way IR-B,C penetrates is very very poor. and super heating the top layers of the keratin is the probelm because you are breaking the bonds that hold the structure of the shell together at a biological level.
i tried to find a bulb holder that would allow 10 bulbs to be placed into their.. I have found multples issues with this...
#1. I cant find any that offer so many bulb outlets...
#2. I looked at holiday lights and the wattages are not high enough to allow such bulbs to heat the tortoise.
#3. you would need to invent and wire multple sockets together in a frame that is thermally stable, as well as parallel wire them together .
#4. The bulbs offered have a pointed tip at the end of the bulbs .. anything low wattage all have tip instead of flood lamp bases.
I tried but i seriously couldn't find anything. It would need to be invented and made from scratch.
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This lamp holder still does not change the dynamics of the bulb itself and how the bulb distributes the light. Localized heating is still an issue. As i have that style dome for my female russian and the same exact thing was happening during my thermal imaging of her. Those pics were taken from her habitat which has that flat large dome. So personally it all has to do with the bulb and not as much the holder. Even though there is some change it still makes the tissue overheat and unevenly heat as the bulbs heats.
I am glad that you are passionate about tortoise care. I have not read this entire thread and to end in quite a while. I think many tortoise enclosures are too dark. Especially if you have a big one like is recommended. That is where I think a long fluorescent tube type UVB helps. I think mercury vapor bulbs should be used in large fixtures, like the ones from the feed store, they cost $10 and are 11 to 12 inches wide. This helps spread out the UVB and heat and light in a way that I'm sure you can explain better than I can. I have experience with Russian tortoises basically. So that is where my first-hand experience comes from, that and box turtles. They are two very different species that need different things so I'm going to focus on Russians because that is what you have.
I am a little concerned that your enclosure might be too warm. Do you keep it 85° at night also? How far away from the top of your tortoise is your bowl? How wide are the fixtures? And how big is your enclosure?
I think that maybe you are causing some of the problems that you were actually trying to prevent. Please don't be defensive about that statement. I don't know for sure that's why I asked the above questions. So let's have constructive discussions now. Not taking sides but sharing information and ideas.
I am a little concerned that your enclosure might be too warm. Do you keep it 85° at night also? How far away from the top of your tortoise is your bowl? How wide are the fixtures? And how big is your enclosure?
I think that maybe you are causing some of the problems that you were actually trying to prevent. Please don't be defensive about that statement. I don't know for sure that's why I asked the above questions. So let's have constructive discussions now. Not taking sides but sharing information and ideas.
Haha ill explain a little better how its set up. Both tortoises are kept in habitats that ambiently reach 85 f. If you look at my habitat pic of nibbles that whole habiat is kept between 82 and 85f (depends on day). My basking is about 92- 97f (depends on day), the hides that are accessible which are plentiful go down to about 75f and are kept humid and the substrate always moist for microclimate. At night my temps drop between 68 and 71 all over the habitat. On occasion it might drop to like 65 but no lower then that. (They are in my room and habitats are covered at night with blankets, i like the cold
).I am very not a fan of a single heating lamp and one uvb lamp at all.. I found my 2 lamp system to work well. Even though my next made habiatas will allow me to inrease wattage and increase basking "zones" by upping the distance of the lamp and allowing my friend and i lamp filter to be installed.. But make no mistake about it, this does not take away the localized heating and any thermal imaging camera will show that across any tortoise housed under all tyoes of artificial lamps that are not filtreed accordingly. IE {CHE, Incandescent , mercury vapor, halogen , metal halide)
And they are dark for a reason. Because the lighting scheme is wrong. They should never be in the dark unless its night time and they are headed to bed. During the daytime outside its not dark anyhere but a shelter. If its dark in a habitat the tortoise is going to want to sleep. IF I HAD A PENNY FOR EVERY TIME I HEARD ALL MY TORT DOES IS SLEEP.. i would be a millionaire. Because a quick look at their lighting scheme shows one lamp in a huge habitat with one corner lit by a UVB bulb.. ITS LIKE DUHH!!! no wonder he wants to sleep all the time.... and the funniest thing is the people who listened to me .. miraculously had super active awake tortoises. (I have my own FB group now.) and people actually listen and i see excellent results.
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Hiya Glitch, I have been following this post for some time now and have decided to go ahead and try EVCO on my Leo. I started today. I gave him his bath and let him soak for 25 to 30 min changing his water when it cooled down to much or when he dirtied it. After his soak he got a gentle scrubbing and then massaged with a teaspoon of EVCO, I rubbed it on his shell for a few minutes and then let it sit on him for another 2 or 3 min and then buffed any excess off, which wasn't much. I will be doing this three times a week and go from there. I believe in the benifical properties of EVCO as I use it for myself and my furry and feathered kids. I am attaching some pics of Leo after I did the application, don't mind his holding tank, I was way to busy today to change it. Hopefully if everything goes as planned he will be in his perminant setup by the end of the week. Oh and BTW Leo loves his massage lol
P.S. I only use Organic Extra Virgin Cold Pressed Unrefined Coconut Oil. Nothing but the best for my own use so nothing but the best for my scaly, furry and feathery kids
P.S. I only use Organic Extra Virgin Cold Pressed Unrefined Coconut Oil. Nothing but the best for my own use so nothing but the best for my scaly, furry and feathery kids
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The posts that were removed were argumentative and off topic.
I like the fact that your habitat is light. I agree that dark enclosures are not good. I'm glad you let the temps drop at night. Somebody made a comment earlier that they thought your entire habitat was way too hot. Maybe because it looks in the picture like the lights are relatively close to the tortoises. How high above the top of the tortoises she'll are your bulbs?Haha ill explain a little better how its set up. Both tortoises are kept in habitats that ambiently reach 85 f. If you look at my habitat pic of nibbles that whole habiat is kept between 82 and 85f (depends on day). My basking is about 92- 97f (depends on day), the hides that are accessible which are plentiful go down to about 75f and are kept humid and the substrate always moist for microclimate. At night my temps drop between 68 and 71 all over the habitat. On occasion it might drop to like 65 but no lower then that. (They are in my room and habitats are covered at night with blankets, i like the cold
I am very not a fan of a single heating lamp and one uvb lamp at all.. I found my 2 lamp system to work well. Even though my next made habiatas will allow me to inrease wattage and increase basking "zones" by upping the distance of the lamp and allowing my friend and i lamp filter to be installed.. But make no mistake about it, this does not take away the localized heating and any thermal imaging camera will show that across any tortoise housed under all tyoes of artificial lamps that are not filtreed accordingly. IE {CHE, Incandescent , mercury vapor, halogen , metal halide)
And they are dark for a reason. Because the lighting scheme is wrong. They should never be in the dark unless its night time and they are headed to bed. During the daytime outside its not dark anyhere but a shelter. If its dark in a habitat the tortoise is going to want to sleep. IF I HAD A PENNY FOR EVERY TIME I HEARD ALL MY TORT DOES IS SLEEP.. i would be a millionaire. Because a quick look at their lighting scheme shows one lamp in a huge habitat with one corner lit by a UVB bulb.. ITS LIKE DUHH!!! no wonder he wants to sleep all the time.... and the funniest thing is the people who listened to me .. miraculously had super active awake tortoises. (I have my own FB group now.) and people actually listen and i see excellent results.
And I understand your concern with a mercury vapor bulb. Do you think the effects would be better if it was in a larger fixture? Maybe test it and see. I know there'll still be some issues but maybe they would be less. Also, have you tested the tube fluorescent bulbs? Or do you plan to? I know your focus would not be on the heat but more the UVB for those.
I know there are people experimenting with alternatives to overhead heating.
I'll be interested to see the results. Yes it will still give off hot spots. To not have a hot spot you need the heat source further away to create an ambient. I look forward to seeing your invention. I hope it works and is practical. Something to clip on an everyday shade that reflects the heat into different directions would be practical for all. A simple cone shape below the bulb would absorb and reflect the hot spot. Trouble is with coconut oil, its not practical for all. By the time you would have coconuted a heard of sulcata it would be bed time. I believe the answer is to have the heat source further away and treat the light as a different source from the heat. BTW. What is the thermal equipment called that you are using. Is it expensive. I have simple thermal guns for work. Can these be linked to software to get the images.
I'm not going to fight with you, just to remind everyone that in a debate, each side states their opposing view. You and your alter ego, Heard, didn't state a view. You merely poo poo'd the opposition's view. I've re-read all the posts that were sent to the "TO BE DELETED" file, and none of them show an opposing view. They were just written to troll.
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Thank you Ms. Yvonne for clarifying that. You're correct they were off topic.
Now let's all get back to talking about the pros and cons of using coconut oil, please?
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Alaskamike
Well-Known Member
Uneven heating is addressed by deploying multiple bulbs of lower wattage and varying heights. Perhaps Glitch can wield his FLiR so as to explore this."
I thought of this myself some time ago , in fact I know many are trying this method in combination with high humidity and regular soaks to mitigate the drying of caprice. We have currently the recommendations for varying temps in the ecosystem set ups; basking spot- cool end- humid hide. As well as ambient ( overall) temps are all mentioned as optimum.
If you have a 4' x 8' enclosed table this is made much easier. There is enough distance between areas to " git-er-done". But this is much more of a challenge with small floor area. Glass tanks especially.
Ants
I though of this since I'm in Florida and those damn fire ants are an issue. But find the oil fresh or days later seems of no interest to them. Mine are 100% outdoors , so it would be easy to tell. Nothing so far - I'll keep an eye on it.
I thought of this myself some time ago , in fact I know many are trying this method in combination with high humidity and regular soaks to mitigate the drying of caprice. We have currently the recommendations for varying temps in the ecosystem set ups; basking spot- cool end- humid hide. As well as ambient ( overall) temps are all mentioned as optimum.
If you have a 4' x 8' enclosed table this is made much easier. There is enough distance between areas to " git-er-done". But this is much more of a challenge with small floor area. Glass tanks especially.
Ants
I though of this since I'm in Florida and those damn fire ants are an issue. But find the oil fresh or days later seems of no interest to them. Mine are 100% outdoors , so it would be easy to tell. Nothing so far - I'll keep an eye on it.
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Coconut oil does contain antimicrobial, anti-viral, ant-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. The anti-microbial actions kills harmful microbes in the infected area and helps it heal faster without infection. If you simmer some coconut oil with a garlic clove it acts as an antibacterial oil in sensitive areas like the nose, mouth and ear and helps heal the infection Coconut oil is filled with fatty acids, 50% of which are Lauric Acid. When it’s digested, it forms monoglyceride known as monolaurin. Both of these kill harmful pathogens including bacteria, fungi and viruses.
One I'm very familiar with ...Coconut oil can dramatically reduce seizures.This is how it works..... The fatty acids in coconut oil are turned into ketones, which are being applied to epilepsy treatments. Many epileptic patients are put on a special diet on which they consume very little carbs and a lot of fat because this creates increased amounts of ketone bodies in blood. According to Authority Nutrition, “Because the MCTs in coconut oil get shipped to the liver and turned into ketone bodies, they are often used in epileptic patients to induce ketosis while allowing for a bit more carbs in the diet.”
One I'm very familiar with ...Coconut oil can dramatically reduce seizures.This is how it works..... The fatty acids in coconut oil are turned into ketones, which are being applied to epilepsy treatments. Many epileptic patients are put on a special diet on which they consume very little carbs and a lot of fat because this creates increased amounts of ketone bodies in blood. According to Authority Nutrition, “Because the MCTs in coconut oil get shipped to the liver and turned into ketone bodies, they are often used in epileptic patients to induce ketosis while allowing for a bit more carbs in the diet.”
Alaskamike
Well-Known Member
The antibacterial, anti-viral, and anti-fungal properties interest me , since in South Florida it can get so humid during the rainy season that mold, bacteria, and fungi get crazy.
It's early in the morning here right now and 82f with 89% humidity. should get to 90f+ ambient today My Sulcata and my Aldabra live in outside enclosures, so the issues of lighting are not a problem for them, they get plenty of sunlight and their outside box / hides are heated with a radiant heater in the winter to 80-92f all the time. I use no lamps. Saying that, I've still been fascinated with the explanations of beta and alpha keratin and how it form and grows. May of my questions about the causes of pyramiding have been answered.Good stuff. When I got my Sully he was 2 yo and pyramided. I've been working to see that this stopped and smooths out.as best it can. And it seems to be improving every month.
My Sulcata has an underground cave and in summer now spends allot of time in there. The humidity down there is 90% + all the time. After a rain (which it does almost daily) he comes out covered in mud. Must have a good time down there digging in it.
SO I apply the EVCO weekly to combat the possibility of mold growth on their shells, as well as anything starting in the scratches they get on them from digging around in the dirt. The Sully especially - he is such a bull dozer. I put it on the plastron also. Have watched for ants, as was previously brought up, and see no problem with them. They do not seem to be attracted to the oil, fresh or old. I think though, I'll put a little EVCO in a jar lid and set it out in the yard and see what happens. I'm curious to see if any bugs care for it.
When I was raising a few Leopard babies (I've since gotten out of Leopards) I had a 4' x 8' tort table, covered in plexiglass, kept humid at 60-80% and used CHE as well as a UVB. My leopards were okay - not perfect, but I sold them before really knowing how their shells would fully turn out. I wish I had known about the EVCO then to experiment with it. I see so few adult Leopards with smooth shells. I wonder if the high humidity method is working as well with them as it does for the Sulcatas. Maybe someone can answer this. It seems the leopards are extremely prone to pyramiding.
Would love to see some Leopards raised indoors with humid chambers and no pyramiding- Maybe some one out there is doing this and could comment with pictures? I think if I ever do raise more young ones, I would do both EVCO AND closed chambers and see if it makes a difference. While there have been some reasonable question as to the efficacy of EVCO, in reviewing the available data on it, I see no real downside to the application on shells.
In humid closed chambers the possibility of mold , bacteria and fungus proliferation is always present. I know many have not seen this, but some have a problem with it. May very well depend on where in the country you are. Out West where it is dry not so much, in the South East and Mid West mold and fungi travel on the wind. Enters your home every time you open a door or crack a window open.
This "experiment" has limited value. We can learn nothing about the positive effects of coconut oil from this. Yes, your tortoises look good. But that may be due to your husbandry practices aside from the oil. The oil may be doing nothing at all.
You can cite facts about the properties of coconut oil all day, and even if all those facts suggest that oil should have a positive effect on tortoise shells, it is meaningless until it is demonstrated. There are too many variables and unknowns in tortoise care to link the keratin and uv light factoids posted in this thread to the health of the shells of your tortoises.
If you keep this up for another 19 years with similar results, we may be able to state that coconut oil will not harm tortoises. But that is very different from the claims you are attempting to make in this thread.
Given that you have 2 tortoises, it really seems like a wasted opportunity that you did not choose to oil one and not the other, to observe the differences in shell growth. That would have demonstrated something, albeit to a limited degree. Until 2 hatchlings from the same clutch are raised in the same conditions, with the only difference in husbandry practices being one shell is oiled and the other is not, we will have no reliable understanding on the effects of coconut oil on shell growth.
You can cite facts about the properties of coconut oil all day, and even if all those facts suggest that oil should have a positive effect on tortoise shells, it is meaningless until it is demonstrated. There are too many variables and unknowns in tortoise care to link the keratin and uv light factoids posted in this thread to the health of the shells of your tortoises.
If you keep this up for another 19 years with similar results, we may be able to state that coconut oil will not harm tortoises. But that is very different from the claims you are attempting to make in this thread.
Given that you have 2 tortoises, it really seems like a wasted opportunity that you did not choose to oil one and not the other, to observe the differences in shell growth. That would have demonstrated something, albeit to a limited degree. Until 2 hatchlings from the same clutch are raised in the same conditions, with the only difference in husbandry practices being one shell is oiled and the other is not, we will have no reliable understanding on the effects of coconut oil on shell growth.
Hi AMMG, and welcome to the Forum! Won't you take a few minutes to post a thread in our "Introductions" section and tell us a bit about yourself and your tortoises?
