Coconut Oil

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
I would love to know what edible oils you used and read in books. Because extra virgin coconut oil has unique properties not seen in many other applicable oils.
I'm sorry, I can't remember, this was many years ago when I was still a child. I just know that we tried different oils, olive oil was one of them.
But I looked it up in two old books - one just says cooking oil, the other one recommends to rub the shell with a bacon rind.

Maybe it works better with coconut oil, but are you sure it doesn't stay in the keratin?
On Nov 19 you postet a picture:
I took a pic before I went to class this morning.. He hates morning pics... No oil present.
It still looks very oily to me. The rich colours of shell and skin, the surface, the shine,... everything looks completely different from all the tortoises that I know (wild ones and tortoises from outdoor enclosures without oil on their shells).
I can remember this was what my mothers torts looked like for weeks after we applied the oil (I didn't like that look, it was just too unnatural in my opinion :p).
 

gingerbee

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Messages
796
Location (City and/or State)
Washington state
I just bought this to use on sparky I'm going to give it a try since she's had shell problems from injury. I'm not going to put much on. Like another poster said rub in my hands than on her shell. I'll let you know how it goes!! A couple of forum people suggested it in my posts about her shell.
 

glitch4200

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
433
Location (City and/or State)
NW suburbs of Chicago
I'm sorry, I can't remember, this was many years ago when I was still a child. I just know that we tried different oils, olive oil was one of them.
But I looked it up in two old books - one just says cooking oil, the other one recommends to rub the shell with a bacon rind.

Maybe it works better with coconut oil, but are you sure it doesn't stay in the keratin?
On Nov 19 you postet a picture:

It still looks very oily to me. The rich colours of shell and skin, the surface, the shine,... everything looks completely different from all the tortoises that I know (wild ones and tortoises from outdoor enclosures without oil on their shells).
I can remember this was what my mothers torts looked like for weeks after we applied the oil (I didn't like that look, it was just too unnatural in my opinion :p).

Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present. I mean it could be stuck in the keratin but still looks healthy. How many other tortoises do you know that has received so many coconut oil applications, the effect could be permanent to the look. As if the other tortoises had never had even one application it probably wouldn't look the same
 

Anyfoot

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present. I mean it could be stuck in the keratin but still looks healthy. How many other tortoises do you know that has received so many coconut oil applications, the effect could be permanent to the look. As if the other tortoises had never had even one application it probably wouldn't look the same
Hi

I have 7 adult redfoots, I got them from several different places. I've noticed the last one I got (George, about a month ago) doesn't absorb the water when I wet him. When I bathe them or pour water on there shells they all stay wet, Except Georges shell, the water blobulates and runs off as if he has been waxed. Could the last owner have been putting oil on him and if so does this prove his carapace can't absorb moisture due to oil, He has got pyramiding too. Oh and yes I made the word blobulates up. :) lol
 

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
Well just because it looks healthy doesbt mean it that oil is present.
It's not about healthy or unhealthy... it just looks oily to me.
Like stone or wood can be polished until it has a natural shine, but gets a different shine if you apply oil on it.
 

glitch4200

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
433
Location (City and/or State)
NW suburbs of Chicago
It's not about healthy or unhealthy... it just looks oily to me.
Like stone or wood can be polished until it has a natural shine, but gets a different shine if you apply oil on it.

Looks don't really matter to me as long as no harm is coming to him and he is getting all the hydration he needs and to hope this oil is actually blocking some of the water loss as a result of 'unfiltered' IR-A coming from these lamps. Like I said unnatural solution to an unnatural issue. Coconut application to a tortoise is unnatural , I agree. But so is keeping them indoors under heat lamps and not outside but unfortunately some of us can't keep them outside for whatever reason so now having them inside under lamps presents a unique problem.

Expecially if low ambient humidity , low soakings, and poor access to clean drinking water is established as appropriate husbandry (which we know is not correct). All tortoises that are indoor kept I feel should be bathed very often , to me I am doing it almost every day now. And they gladly accept it 95% of the time. As well as have really humid hides to retreat to if they want with at lest 50% ambient humidity to try and counteract the low humidity levels seen right under basking lamp as a result of 'unfiltered' iR-a, which I have shown can get to very unnatural humidity levels of 15% or less.

People have not really been grasping the concept of 'unfiltered' iR-a and how dangerous it can be when coupled with low ambient humidity, low soaking, and poor access to water. I have explained this to groups on Facebook recently and they yell at me and tell me I am stupid essentially. And that I have no idea what I am talking about. I may not be the smartest but I don't consider myself dumb the least bit. And I know there are very wrong to dismiss 'unfiltered' iR-a as a serious concern. that is why over 80% of the tortoise on that group where grossly deformed. They lacked any access to humidity , were told to not soak often and a lot didn't seem to have water dishs. I found it digusting and horrorfying.

I feel this is a concept owners of tortoises that are indoor kept should understand real well when housing a tortoise. The dehydration effects or 'unfiltered' iR-a can become extreme and if counter meaures are not taken you will surely develop a dehydrated tortoise , which we all know leads to so many tortoise issues from impaction to kidney stones.

The only counter measure a keeper can take to prevent this is well established humidity , soaking very often , and always having access to clean drinking water. Those 3 are the only 3 that are somewhat accepted all around but people still argue about all 3 of those ad what is best for the tortoise. I hope extra virgin coconut oil can be added as a 4th dimension to counteracting 'unfiltered' IR-A. That is my goal here. To see if this is plausible and I think it very much is. It csn be just another added debatable husbandry technique, which is exactly what this has turned into.
 

Anyfoot

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2014
Messages
6,309
Location (City and/or State)
UK Sheffield
Looks don't really matter to me as long as no harm is coming to him and he is getting all the hydration he needs and to hope this oil is actually blocking some of the water loss as a result of 'unfiltered' IR-A coming from these lamps. Like I said unnatural solution to an unnatural issue. Coconut application to a tortoise is unnatural , I agree. But so is keeping them indoors under heat lamps and not outside but unfortunately some of us can't keep them outside for whatever reason so now having them inside under lamps presents a unique problem.

Expecially if low ambient humidity , low soakings, and poor access to clean drinking water is established as appropriate husbandry (which we know is not correct). All tortoises that are indoor kept I feel should be bathed very often , to me I am doing it almost every day now. And they gladly accept it 95% of the time. As well as have really humid hides to retreat to if they want with at lest 50% ambient humidity to try and counteract the low humidity levels seen right under basking lamp as a result of 'unfiltered' iR-a, which I have shown can get to very unnatural humidity levels of 15% or less.

People have not really been grasping the concept of 'unfiltered' iR-a and how dangerous it can be when coupled with low ambient humidity, low soaking, and poor access to water. I have explained this to groups on Facebook recently and they yell at me and tell me I am stupid essentially. And that I have no idea what I am talking about. I may not be the smartest but I don't consider myself dumb the least bit. And I know there are very wrong to dismiss 'unfiltered' iR-a as a serious concern. that is why over 80% of the tortoise on that group where grossly deformed. They lacked any access to humidity , were told to not soak often and a lot didn't seem to have water dishs. I found it digusting and horrorfying.

I feel this is a concept owners of tortoises that are indoor kept should understand real well when housing a tortoise. The dehydration effects or 'unfiltered' iR-a can become extreme and if counter meaures are not taken you will surely develop a dehydrated tortoise , which we all know leads to so many tortoise issues from impaction to kidney stones.

The only counter measure a keeper can take to prevent this is well established humidity , soaking very often , and always having access to clean drinking water. Those 3 are the only 3 that are somewhat accepted all around but people still argue about all 3 of those ad what is best for the tortoise. I hope extra virgin coconut oil can be added as a 4th dimension to counteracting 'unfiltered' IR-A. That is my goal here. To see if this is plausible and I think it very much is. It csn be just another added debatable husbandry technique, which is exactly what this has turned into.
Hi glitch

I have asked this before elsewhere and got no answer. You mentioned 3 hydration methods. Am I right in saying some foods also hydrate a tort.
Also I have no problem in holding 99% humidity in my enclosure. See my other thread about worms to look at it. However under the heated end it drops to about 30/40% so i do dampen this end every other day to counter act the evaporation. I was thinking when i make my next enclosure should I blank off the heated end so torts can not bask directly underneath the heat. So basically I could have a no go zone area for torts where the heat source is that was designed to push the flow of heat towards the opposite end of the enclosure. My humidity about 3" from heat and lights is about 80 to 85% ad heat is still well up at higher levels.

Thanks
Craig
 

glitch4200

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
433
Location (City and/or State)
NW suburbs of Chicago
Hi glitch

I have asked this before elsewhere and got no answer. You mentioned 3 hydration methods. Am I right in saying some foods also hydrate a tort.
Also I have no problem in holding 99% humidity in my enclosure. See my other thread about worms to look at it. However under the heated end it drops to about 30/40% so i do dampen this end every other day to counter act the evaporation. I was thinking when i make my next enclosure should I blank off the heated end so torts can not bask directly underneath the heat. So basically I could have a no go zone area for torts where the heat source is that was designed to push the flow of heat towards the opposite end of the enclosure. My humidity about 3" from heat and lights is about 80 to 85% ad heat is still well up at higher levels.

Thanks
Craig

I would not count food as a source of hydration, russians for example are suppose to have a low moisture diet, so if your feeding them correct diet they will get very little water from there food. People would take that as , "oh yea , my tortoise is hydrated cuz I know they get there water from there food." That is false and dangerous in my opinoin. A style of thinking that could lead to severe hydration.

I mean that encloaure sounds like a good idea. If you could still achieve proper basking temps with that, then try it. 90-99% Is very high humidity. If it is that high humdity under the lamps I would suspect you to be ok. But majority of people don't have humidity that high so those humidity levels under the heat lamp will usually never be that good under the basking lamp. I know each tortoise is different and how they react to higher and Lower levels of humidity but no tortoise should be exposed to abnormally low sustained humidity, which is often the case in low humidity habitsts that have high wattage heat lamps.
 

glitch4200

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
433
Location (City and/or State)
NW suburbs of Chicago
Soo... Sometime this week. I will be renting this infrared temperature camera. http://www.flir.com/homedepot/

I have a couple goals by doing this. I want to show you all the difference between the heating and cooling (thermoregulation) of a tortoise with and without extra virgin coconut oil applied to the shell and skin. I will compare and contrast thermal images of when EVCO is applied and when i feel it has dried out of the shell. I will also do show the heating styles of different styles of heating lamps, such as mercury vapor bulbs, incadescent bulbs, Infrared bulbs, ceramic heating elements, and UV bulbs with and without EVCO.

I had a biology peer reviewer who runs a tortoise sanctuary see what i was posting on a group in facebook and asked about the thermal images i posted from Andy Highfields research and Dr. Francis Baines talk about IR-A and dehydration. He said what i posted has some potential and that more data was required to show what i was saying about dehydration. He said he would review it, if i did it. So I decided to take it upon myself to show you all the difference in how these lamps heat indoor kept tortoises for all to see. But, even better ill show you the differences in heating with and without EVCO applications too, to see if it really effects thermo-regulation of tortoises and if so by how much and how long in time-frame. I will take readings every 10 minutes for the first 1 hour. At which point ill take a reading every 15 minutes for the next 2 hours.

This should show the heating pattern of a tortoise under different styles of lights. If anyone can add onto this for me, so i can have as realistic and error free experiment as possible please chime in. Thanks.
 

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
I'm looking forward to it!
I would recommend to take more readings in the beginning, maybe after 1 minute, after 3 minutes,...) to see if it's warming up slower or faster. For comparison it would be important for him to always sit directly under the lamp (pointing straight down), but I guess that's kind of difficult since you can't tell him not to move. :p

Sadly, you can't show any health implications with only one experimental animal, but it is a start. ;)
 

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
So that means coconut oil blocks about 85% of the UV rays, right? That would be a great disadvantage.
 

AmRoKo

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2013
Messages
711
Location (City and/or State)
Florida
Yvonne is correct and it has already been stated previously, Most of the UVB is absorbed through their skin not their shell. Also coconut oil only has a spf of about 7 which is shown in that link. Pretty much it's spf is so low you really won't notice a difference in uvb blocking with or without it.
 

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
I've used oil on shells in the past. I've always tried to use only a little bit and to not get anything on the skin. But as it is warmed, oil becomes more liquid and after some basking in the sun, the skin was oily all over. I guess it's just unavoidable.
On every picture in this thread you can also see oily skin.
 

glitch4200

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2014
Messages
433
Location (City and/or State)
NW suburbs of Chicago
I've used oil on shells in the past. I've always tried to use only a little bit and to not get anything on the skin. But as it is warmed, oil becomes more liquid and after some basking in the sun, the skin was oily all over. I guess it's just unavoidable.
On every picture in this thread you can also see oily skin.

Not all oils are created equally or have the same molecule structure. Some oils absorb fast and others don't. I put the EVCO on arms and legs and top of head, which according to my nicely taken thermal imaging i can see are some of the first parts to heat up on the tortoise. My applications range from 2x to 3x a week. I feed good knowing that its so low in SPF. According to my unsubstanciated thermal pictures i am still seeing localized hot spots but i am still able to achieve full heating of my tortoises.
 

WithLisa

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Messages
967
Location (City and/or State)
Austria
Is SPF 7 low? I use an SPF 10 sunscreen, that's more than enough for my fair skin.
 
Top