Coconut Oil

[glitch4200]

HI, I don't post on the forums too often but this thread caught my eye and I just finished reading all ten pages. I'd always been curious on applying oil or moisturizers to shells, I work with horses where hoof oil is commonly used to combat dryness and I've seen it help my horse's feet in the dry season. I'd never tried it on my tortoises though because of it's UV blocking properties. Granted, the arguments I'd heard against it all implied that the tortoise absorbs most of it's UV through the carapace which apparently is untrue. I use a closed chamber for my two Red Foots which helps keep the ambient humidity up and I try to employ the 'spray them until they drip' method of spritzing their shells with a spray bottle a few times a day. Even with the closed chamber it can be difficult to keep the humidity where I want it (although it's infinitely better then when I was using an open table). When the humidity is right my tort's shells are lovely and glossy but they will get dull and dried out as soon as that humidity drops. I am interested in giving the coconut oil a try.

I did want to contest one thing though, you seem to be pretty adamant that soaking twice a week or less is a dangerously low amount. I would argue that it depends entirely on the tortoise involved. I understand why soaking more often is important for your little one if they so rarely use the water dish available to them but some tortoises utilize their dishes a lot. I know my Red Foots are a tropical species, and a desert species may have different natural behaviors, but my guys play in their water dishes all the time. I typically do a force soak once a week or less because I watch them soak themselves, drink, and generally muck about in the water ever single day. I often give them fresh water at lunch time only to have it become a muddy poopy mess by dinner and need to scrub it out again. Forced soaks four times a week could be the right amount for some individuals, but others might not need it quite so often. Heck, earlier this year I ran into the issue of my girl Tortellini sleeping all night in her water dish. I'd rearranged the enclosure and had the dish too close to her mercury vapor bulb, she was treating it as her own personal hot tub and I was starting to get concerned of the possibility of shell rot. I moved it a few inches further from the light and she went back to her usual routine without issue.

Anyway, I do want to give the coconut oil a try. Maybe it will decrease the number of spray bottle mistings we do.

First, I should probably clarify that this is loose framework for an idea. I think its all about personal judgement as well as species of tortoise you have and there daily behaviors. I mean i have a desert species kept under high powered lamps for proper heat, on an open table top that really struggles to maintain humidity, althugh my fight with humidity is now better since i got a handy dandy high-pressure spray bottle. No more tigger finger haha. I also dont see him drink his water too often. So me needing to soak him every other day is really necessary. If you see your little ones always in water then force soaking 4x a week like i said is for sure way to much.

A tortoise hot tub i love it. Please post your observations on here if you get the chance, the more data the better.

 

[glitch4200]

At times the OP has gone a bit overboard in application - maybe even claims for EVCO , however this enthusiasm is common in any new husbandry technique. Lets not throw the ' baby out with the bath water "

Perhaps the application of EVCO to plastron as well as Caprice can help our torts maintain internally the hydration received. Even fight mold & mildew. Maybe a more modest humidity level of 60-80% is more conducive to avoiding mold and mildew problems in enclosed system. Maybe allowing your chambers to dry out occasionally is a good thing.

Sometimes we become so attached to an idea we become blind to modification, or even advances in our understanding. This we can readily see almost daily on this forum with new people who resist good tested advice.

Knowledge is constantly expanding Through trial and error, accidental discovery and scientific experimentation. This is not a threat to wisdom - it is the very definition of wisdom.
Mike

I am a very enthusiastic person haha. And i very much go overboard in my thought when i get a crazy idea in my head and it actually seems to be do playing out awesomely! I have definitely went overboard at the beginning but now my balance craving has been kicked in and i am trying to look at these applicatiions from different angles playing with drying out time and how much i apply.

This is a very new idea and I people do tend to want to stick what works for them from the test of time, but as time goes on with this like all we can be more sure of the idea itself.

This quote is awesome. <3

 

[glitch4200]

Soo. I was at Petco on the 5th. I saw a bunch of tortoise they were selling. I was horrified at the conditions they were in, one in particular was in there that was really tiny, smaller then the rest. Active, but slow. The temps were about 75 degrees. Humidity was also low. There was mold growing in the small mount of substrate that was in there. The space for FOUR tortoises was inhumane. I took pictures and posted them on here to identify if this was a female. I really think she is. Her tail was so damn small and had that (*) shape and was short and fat and I have nibbles and I remember that his tail was longer, with a slit in his tail. So i am still thinking she is a female. She is about 4ish inches long. She was severely dehydrated.


first bath. which by the way didn't make those dry lines go away for long.

i applied a super thin coat of EVCO to see its effects and those lines went awway and have stayed away since, and i have bathed 4 times since the 6th.

that was breakfast... she ate all of that plus the entire plate at lunch.. She was starved.
dominated the dish. loves all the stuff nibbles doesn't like ie herbal mix, mazuri, zoomed grassland as toppers.

I am going to begin applying oil on her consistently soon, i need to weigh her and size her exactly and put together a data sheet for her. She is now part of this grand health experiment. You can tell there is a start to the keratin dehydration considering the conditions she was living in, i am not suprised. She is very smooth, but you can see the overlapping of scutes which seem to buckle at certain points through the shell.

She is slowly warming up to me She is in quaratine for now. She has been watching me. I pet her on occasion. I show her nibbles through the glass. I am keeping her full, and in heat up to 95 degrees which she can not seem to get enough of.. She will be taken to the vet after the first of the year, low on cash for now. This will be a nice addition to the data. But more important she is safe and in a very loving home. I couldn't save them all but.. at least i know i could save one. Some peace of mind i have now..

 

[Elohi]

Nice save. She is adorable.

 

[Earth Mama]

Soo. I was at Petco on the 5th. I saw a bunch of tortoise they were selling. I was horrified at the conditions they were in, one in particular was in there that was really tiny, smaller then the rest. Active, but slow. The temps were about 75 degrees. Humidity was also low. There was mold growing in the small mount of substrate that was in there. The space for FOUR tortoises was inhumane. I took pictures and posted them on here to identify if this was a female. I really think she is. Her tail was so damn small and had that (*) shape and was short and fat and I have nibbles and I remember that his tail was longer, with a slit in his tail. So i am still thinking she is a female. She is about 4ish inches long. View attachment 108864 She was severely dehydrated.
View attachment 108865
View attachment 108866
first bath. which by the way didn't make those dry lines go away for long.
View attachment 108867
i applied a super thin coat of EVCO to see its effects and those lines went awway and have stayed away since, and i have bathed 4 times since the 6th.
View attachment 108868
that was breakfast... she ate all of that plus the entire plate at lunch.. She was starved.View attachment 108870
dominated the dish. loves all the stuff nibbles doesn't like ie herbal mix, mazuri, zoomed grassland as toppers.

I am going to begin applying oil on her consistently soon, i need to weigh her and size her exactly and put together a data sheet for her. She is now part of this grand health experiment. You can tell there is a start to the keratin dehydration considering the conditions she was living in, i am not suprised. She is very smooth, but you can see the overlapping of scutes which seem to buckle at certain points through the shell.

She is slowly warming up to me She is in quaratine for now. She has been watching me. I pet her on occasion. I show her nibbles through the glass. I am keeping her full, and in heat up to 95 degrees which she can not seem to get enough of.. She will be taken to the vet after the first of the year, low on cash for now. This will be a nice addition to the data. But more important she is safe and in a very loving home. I couldn't save them all but.. at least i know i could save one. Some peace of mind i have now..

@glitch4200
I with you on this one. I dec 3 I had a similar experience. Check out the thread called "another russian nightmare" in the russian tortoise subtopic in the Species Specific tab.
Cute little girl you have there. Luck tort. (I don't know how to attach a link using my phone )

 

[puffy137]

Even human skin can look dry, I think I remember Oprah saying her skin looked 'ashy' without oil. I have started using coconut oil from India on mine & they do look a lot better, whether or not it has other advantages I've yet to discover.

 

[glitch4200]

@glitch4200
I with you on this one. I dec 3 I had a similar experience. Check out the thread called "another russian nightmare" in the russian tortoise subtopic in the Species Specific tab.
Cute little girl you have there. Luck tort. (I don't know how to attach a link using my phone )

I will check it out. Thank you she is a very shy right now but it's ok she is coming around and learning who her new friend is.

 

[glitch4200]

**UPDATE** So, Pebbles is 4.25 inches about. and weighs 308 grams. I have had her since the 6th, of December. She now allows me unlimited head rubs (in exchange for breakfast) and her poo went a smelly (what smelled like intense chemicals and ammonia) to a solid non-smelly bright green to match what she has been eating. Her "petco" smell as i call it, is about gone. I never had that with nibbles. He never smelled like that.... She was moved out the glass home and into a big Rubbermaid rigged up, she is happy, i see her regularly drinking the clean water i put out. As well, stays in her bathe for all 30 minutes each day for the first couple weeks she was bathed, the first week was 2 times a day, she now bathes on nibbles schedule, along with coconut oil applications. Both of them are subjected to those lamps constantly so its only fair in my opinion to do this for them. Some things i have noticed that is new in my observations was nibbles is growing and his grow lines around all the scutes seem to be even and nice, He has actually dropped 11 grams over the past 2 months, he was at 344 grams early fall. Now he is 334 grams. He has been sleeping longer too despite the consistent lighting he has that is very bright and warm, He can choose a temperature range from 70 F to 101 F. He often chooses his one spot which gives him the basking option of 100 degrees, i often am taking his temp an he reads from 96 to 99 degrees, shell and skin which he chooses to be in.. His behavior tells me a lot about what who he evolved. He wants it warm as hell, and is happiest in the upper 90's. Pebbles, has a similar range, but being in a smaller habitat, ambient temps are like 91 degrees, basking at 100 degrees, and low side at 75 degrees in his hide. She is settling in as well, what is interesting is the complete difference in colors, I feel they are from complete different areas. All very recent pics. after most recent application for Pebbles.

Happy Holiday

 

[Turtlepete]

This is interesting….

You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.

 

[glitch4200]

This is interesting….

You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.

Pictures of before and after applications and what you observed over time would be a great addition to this compilation of data. Let me know how it goes. Same goes for anyone else trying this.

 

[gingerbee]

Hi wondering about trying coconut oil. I'm not able to post pics of the one I found but here's what the bottle says coconut oil natures way brand extra virgin organic Will this work?

 

[Yvonne G]

What you want should say on the label - "Cold pressed, extra virgin"

 

[cmacusa3]

Why are people using this? Is just to make a shiner shell?

 

[kdub]

This is interesting….

You mention it has anti-fungal and anti-bacterial properties. In South FL, where I live, flooding is common, and more often then not in the summer my adult red's are pretty much saturated. While they absolutely love it, shell fungus on the plastron and marginals is a huge issue due to the moisture that I have to constantly watch out for. I ponder if this could be useful to occasionally apply a small amount to the plastron. Perhaps it would help prevent shell fungus in this application. Maybe I'll give it a shot with one of my girls that has had issues in the past.

I just put the littlest bit into my palm and massage into my skin so there's just a very light coating on my hands. After my little tort gets done with his soak I rub my hands over both sides of his shell then gently wipe him with a paper towel. I've done this twice now about 5 days apart.

 

[kdub]

Why are people using this? Is just to make a shiner shell?

People are trying this to see if helps to keep the carapace from drying out and to protect against shell rot on the plastron. Shininess is just an added bonus.

 

[cmacusa3]

Gotcha, I read some of the posts. I'm still not sold on this idea.

 

[WithLisa]

Interesting thread and pictures!

In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before.
The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).

I know keratin is porous, but it would surprise me if absorption increased the more often applied I have no idea why this might be so. Anyone hazard a guess ?

It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.

I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.

Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.

I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.

Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.

 

[glitch4200]

I see it is time to post finally. I have been waiting lol. Nibbles has officially been recieving consistsnt EVCO applications that range from 2x- 3x a week for now a tad over 3 months. I feel rotating the coconut oil applications allows for more drying out time for the keratin.
I have been noticing that the oil has not been effecting the Temps of the tortoise as it basks or goes into a hide. Thermo regulation isn't effected to a point that would be harmful even if it does vary a degree or 2, as I see with and without application according to my data.

The activity levels of pebbles since her arrival has only risen and she has been subjected to a humid, soaked daily, oil applied multiple times a week type environment. She has gained a healthy amount of weight now and soaks every day for attest 10 minutes. She feels nice and heavy like she should. She enjoys the applications and I have never seen her act like the application are hurting her, and she will stretch her neck out to get a oil massage on her head and neck. She can smell the oil she tried to eat my finger. Her Temps remain stable after application and she never goes above 98 degrees even with oil just applied.

Nibbles has been in winter mode, going to bed as soon as it's dark outside about 5pm, it's like clock work. He basks all day and loves to his 100 degrees. Even with oil application and me not changing his light depth of in a long time, he still rarely goes over 105 and that is his choice he can easily move 2 steps ND be cooler. His temperature gradient is from 100 to 70, with many places to go. He wakes up about 830, every day and has maintained his activity through out all these coconut oil applications. He too loves his oil massage and will often bask for a long time right after or until he hits upper 90s. His eating habits seem to have slowed since end of summer but I find that to be normal considering he is a tortoise and they usually are hibernating right now. He ate a lot the last couple days though finishing his plate. He gets bathed daily or just about daily and he gets to choose how long he bathes. Which is often about 12 minutes, since I bathe him so often. Since he has been receiving the applications the longest and I have yet to find something that would prevent me from applying this oil like I am. I just haven't found a reason that is harmful if done correctly and in moderation with drying out time.

 

[glitch4200]

Interesting thread and pictures!

In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before.
The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).


It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.

I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.

Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.

I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.

Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.

I like your guess. Except the part of it staying in the keratin, I notice the extra virgin coconut oil drys away very quickly when I have been allowing my dry out times. I think the keratin responds to the oil just like it does with water but the IR-A (heat) can't penatrate the keratin to take as much moisture as it would without the coconut oil present. This is my guess. And since it doesn't take as much water, the keratin won't proliferate as a result to try and prevent unnecessary evaporation of moisture. Thus preventing bumps (pyramiding) shells. This is an unnatural solution to an unnatural problem and best believe putting tortoises under heat lamps is unnatural too. And this is where my idea comes into play, with indoor kept tortoises, not tortoises that are mostly outside in the beautiful 'filtered' sun.

 

[glitch4200]

Interesting thread and pictures!

In the past I've used different edible oils on shells, because it was recommended in every book about tortoises to use it regularly.
I can't say that it did any harm, but it always took many weeks for the oil to fade away and when it was finally gone (at least in the visible top layer ), the surface looked worse than before.
The authors of all modern german books (maybe of the last 10 years) strongly advise against the use of oil (but they only write about tortoises in outdoor enclosures with only little exposure to heat bulbs).


It makes sense to me. Put a drop of water on a dry fabric, it will take some time to be absorbed completely. If you wipe it off soon enough, the fabric will still be nearly dry. If you put a drop of water on a wet fabric, it will be absorbed instantly.

I guess the oil seeps into deeper and deeper layers of Keratin every time it's applied.

Keratin becomes soft and pliable when it's saturated with water. Maybe it's the same when it's saturated with oil, I really don't know. But this would explain, why the shell grows smooth with the oil - the oil can't evaporate and so the Keratin can never "dry out".
It would also explain, why my tortoise's shells always looked worse after the oil, since saturated soft Keratin gets scratches more easily, even though they are not visible because of the oil.
I'm sure the shiny surface and brighter colour is just a visual effect that shows that the oil has seeped deep into the shell.

I can't say if it's harmful or maybe even has a positive effect. But it's definitely quite unnatural.
And even if the oil is nontoxic and known to have positive effects... Once it has seeped into the shell, it won't evaporate and can't be washed off, it will probably stay there for months or even years and become rancid.

Just some thoughts... I hope you'll keep us informed of the progress of your experiment, I'm very curious.

I would love to know what edible oils you used and read in books. Because extra virgin coconut oil has unique properties not seen in many other applicable oils.