Cherryhead Fist Fight Today

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cdmay

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I discovered a long time ago that adult male cherryheads often don't get along. I even documented this in an article I wrote for the German turtle magazine Schildkroten im Fokus back in 2004.
Then recently I got a copy of the magazine REPTILIA (#69) from my friend Dan O'Malley who described some pretty violent aggression between his adult male cherryhead and a northern male redfoot in an article he wrote for that magazine. So you would think that I would know better. But as our weather has been rather cool lately, I figured it would be safe to have a couple of my male cherryheads in the same enclosure for the afternoon. I should have listened to my own advice.
As it was getting dark and cooling off I went out to round up my animals to bring them in for the night. It was then that I found that two of my male cherryheads, Moe and Pindo, had squared off and were going at it. Nuts! why can't these guys get along?
Fortunately, there was not much damage yet but Pindo the younger and smaller of the two got his face scuffed up and his bottom jaw cut...

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Some of the scutes on Pindo's front legs also got bit but none of his wounds are serious and will heal up just fine in time.

Moe who is larger, older and I'm pretty sure fights dirty, got his nose messed up by Pindo. But again, his injuries are not serious either...

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They were fortunate in that I came upon them before they really hurt each other.
I am angry at myself for assuming that because it was somewhat cool outside and that the animals are not breeding that the males might tolerate one another. I won't make that mistake again.

On the other hand, Allegra who has a good track record with keeping multiple males together, feels that male cherryheads might be similar to male African cichlids. I too have considered this possiblity. The reasoning is based on the idea that an aquarium filled with male cichlids provides no real territory to defend and thus those males don't engage in serious fighting.
But remove all but a few of those males and they will kill each other as they try to establish their own territories.
It seems that male cherryhead redfoots engage in a similar behavior. People who keep numerous males together--especially in confined areas--never really get the big fights that those of us who attempt to maintain only a couple of males together get.
My advice for those who work with this race of redfoot is that if you do plan on keeping adult males in the same enclosure, make sure you keep a close eye on them for signs of aggression.
 

zzzdanz

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Interesting you posted this.I just had a friend asking me about aggression between male RF and I didn't have an answer for him....This is my "ya learn something new everday" for today.
 

cdmay

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Candy said:
What is their age difference Carl?

Moe was a full adult when I got him 13 (or so) years ago.
Pindo was an unsexed juvenile when I got him 4 years ago. Pindo just became sexually mature last year. But he isn't that much smaller than Moe.

As for the question about biting or banging they seem to do both.
A number of years ago I saw Moe and another male standing up as tall as they could---just like male Galapagos tortoises--and displaying before they bit each other. They quickly began butting too before I broke them up.
 

N2TORTS

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Carl .. interesting no doubt. I must say with my own group I have several males kept together. The normal routine is when first intoduced into the "herd" there is some compittion ramming ..and a few nip' attemps but soon to be all forgotten once "proved king" the largest setting the standard.
How many females do you have with these two? I have several females kept within my group so the males always have a play mate~
Must calm the nerves eh?:p
I also belive we have some related cherry's that you had gotten from Marty years back ... correct?

" Happy Safe Sparring"

JD~:)
 

cdmay

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N2TORTS said:
Carl .. interesting no doubt. I must say with my own group I have several males kept together. The normal routine is when first intoduced into the "herd" there is some compittion ramming ..and a few nip' attemps but soon to be all forgotten once "proved king" the largest setting the standard.
How many females do you have with these two? I have several females kept within my group so the males always have a play mate~
Must calm the nerves eh?:p
I also belive we have some related cherry's that you had gotten from Marty years back ... correct? "
N2TORTS said:
Allegra and Mark have a number of males together and their males do seem to reach a point where they don't fight all the time. But then during breeding season they have told me that the males will occasionally get into it with each other. The problem for me is that when these things occur they can really cause some damage and so it isn't worth the risk. The two males of mine that fought yesterday have lived together in the past with only minor scuffles and when that started I began to keep them apart. It seems to me that although they may not fight all the time, when they do it can get ugly.
There were three large females in the enclosure with the two males.

Yes, I have a female cherryhead that I got from Marty four or five years ago. She is a nice animal.
 

allegraf

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Moe is a just an old fart that is miserable towards anyone other than his girlfriends. He also tries to bluff you out of the pen. I do think you would need more than two males to make sure the aggression is spread. That is the perfect excuse to get more!

Allegra
 

cdmay

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Moe is a just an old fart

Well, I'm just an old fart too but I hardly ever bite other guy's faces.
 

terryo

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I think it's that sporadic Florida weather. Inside...outside....inside....outside....You guys should move to NY.:D:D
 

Madkins007

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On a different note- this sounds like another interesting piece of evidence that Cherry-heads, or possibly all Southerners, are a different species/subspecies than the Northerners.

Consistent physical differences, behavioral differences. Are there differences in the mating/recognition rituals?
 

Candy

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cdmay said:
Moe is a just an old fart

Well, I'm just an old fart too but I hardly ever bite other guy's faces.

If one of them flirted with your wife I bet you would! :D

It actually sounds more like if there's two of them there has to be a "King" like JD says, but if there's more of them then maybe there's more power in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that Moe might be more willing to give up the fight if Pindo has backup by other Redfoot males. ;) And then maybe not. I do think it sounds perfectly male though. :p
 

cdmay

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Candy said:
It actually sounds more like if there's two of them there has to be a "King" like JD says, but if there's more of them then maybe there's more power in numbers. What I'm trying to say is that Moe might be more willing to give up the fight if Pindo has backup by other Redfoot males. ;) And then maybe not. I do think it sounds perfectly male though. :p

Candy, I think that like Allegra and JD, you are also probably right in that after a while they would reach some sort of equilibrium. But then there is always the possibility of another violent encounter and that is something I just refuse to risk for my guys.
This is because I know what they can do to each other--I've seen broken jaws, gaping wounds and even one turtle (not a redfoot) that was blinded in one eye from a fight. No thanks, I am an ULTRA conservative keeper and am always paranoid about things like that.
 

Candy

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I totally agree with you Carl. If Dale or Ruby or Eddie fought and got hurt I would not want it to go any farther, and I would feel responsible for keeping them safe from each other. Now I guess this is something that I will have to worry about when they get bigger. :(
 

Jermosh

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Sullies act like that in groups as well.

2.jpg

This is only part of the pen, but if you had 2 males it could be a battlerama for sure.
 

coreyc

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Jermosh said:
Sullies act like that in groups as well.

2.jpg

This is only part of the pen, but if you had 2 males it could be a battlerama for sure.

where was the pic taken?
 

Jermosh

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coreyc said:
Jermosh said:
Sullies act like that in groups as well.

2.jpg

This is only part of the pen, but if you had 2 males it could be a battlerama for sure.

where was the pic taken?

http://www.phoenixherp.com/ my daughter and I volunteer up there few times a month. It was quite overwhelming at 1st, but you get used to it. You also get to know them as well.
 

Stephanie Logan

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Well, I feel a little guilty for laughing at Moe and Pindo's unremorseful expressions..."Bring it on!", they both seem to be saying. :rolleyes:
 
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