CBW permits in 2020

PattyL

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Oct 27, 2019
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Hi all, sorry to butt into the conversation but I find myself in a bit of a dilema and would appreciate some insight.

I do not possess a CBW but I know someone in my state who does have a CBW and occasionally offers Radiated hatchlings for sale, but will be moving states by next year meaning time is ticking if I want to buy from him.

However I have family members in an unrelated state, who also doesn't have a CBW, which has a greater presence of Radiated breeders.

Not to try and circumvent the law or anything, but, hypothetically speaking, how sketchy, for a lack of a better word, would it be for said family member to legally aquire an animal and then "gift" it to me?

I am not really in a position to comfortably take in a Radiated right now, purely for a lack of husbandry experience IMO, but at the same time I don't want to miss this opportunity and regret it down the line. But the above hypothetical would give me more peace of mind in the possibility of legally getting a Radiated, for when I do feel confident I can provide the adequate care to an expesive tortoise.

Again sorry to butt in!
I would love to hear some replies to your questions posed here as it is relevant to my situation also! Maybe you should post your question out there on a thread of its own to get more eyes on it and some responses!
 

zovick

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Nov 17, 2013
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Hi all, sorry to butt into the conversation but I find myself in a bit of a dilema and would appreciate some insight.

I do not possess a CBW but I know someone in my state who does have a CBW and occasionally offers Radiated hatchlings for sale, but will be moving states by next year meaning time is ticking if I want to buy from him.

However I have family members in an unrelated state, who also doesn't have a CBW, which has a greater presence of Radiated breeders.

Not to try and circumvent the law or anything, but, hypothetically speaking, how sketchy, for a lack of a better word, would it be for said family member to legally aquire an animal and then "gift" it to me?

I am not really in a position to comfortably take in a Radiated right now, purely for a lack of husbandry experience IMO, but at the same time I don't want to miss this opportunity and regret it down the line. But the above hypothetical would give me more peace of mind in the possibility of legally getting a Radiated, for when I do feel confident I can provide the adequate care to an expesive tortoise.

Again sorry to butt in!
What you are describing is perfectly legal, going by the letter of the law, but USFWS looks upon that type of thing as "circumvention of the law" and takes a dim view of it.

That being said, however, there is little if any chance of USFWS ever asking your relative where the tortoise went after he/she bought it from the breeder. In my experience breeding Radiated Tortoises from 1972 through 2018, USFWS never contacted anyone to whom I had sold a Radiated Tortoise within my own state of residence to ask them if they still had it or what had happened to it after they got it. Basically, once the tortoise leaves the hands of the CBW Permit holder legally, USFWS apparently loses all interest and track of the animal.

Additionally, there are now Radiated Tortoise breeders in several states who do not have CBW Permits and therefore are not mandated to report a thing about their hatchlings or sales to the USFWS. If you can find one of those guys, you will be even more sure that nothing bad will happen after your relative buys the tortoise and gives it to you since USFWS will never even know about the tortoise or its initial sale in the first place. Is your relative in TX, FL, or CA?

Is the NC breeder you mentioned Dr. Evan Rosenoff? If not, who is it? I am just curious if I know him or not.
 
Joined
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That makes me feel more at ease now, thank you for the response. Not to mention I can now formulate a real plan and aim to have a sweet setup in a few years time.

Is your relative in TX, FL, or CA?
I have some family members primarily in AZ and some in CA.

Is the NC breeder you mentioned Dr. Evan Rosenoff? If not, who is it? I am just curious if I know him or not.
Yes it is actually. I've met him once and he's got a pretty sweet gig for his Radiateds.
 

Tom

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That makes me feel more at ease now, thank you for the response. Not to mention I can now formulate a real plan and aim to have a sweet setup in a few years time.
@zovick has more experience with radiata and CBW issues than any human I know of. That being said, I was going to say the same thing he said. I've learned about it from other sources, but the info I've been given is consistent with what he said here. Hearing it directly from him is very good reassurance that I have been taught well. Just wanted to chime in with one more voice in agreement.
 

zovick

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That makes me feel more at ease now, thank you for the response. Not to mention I can now formulate a real plan and aim to have a sweet setup in a few years time.

I have some family members primarily in AZ and some in CA.
I overlooked AZ in my prior post. There are Radiated Tortoise breeders and/or reptile dealers in both of those states you mentioned who do not have CBW Permits, hence nothing they do is reported to USFWS. You should be fine going forward.
 

tglazie

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Fascinating topic, especially regarding one particular matter. Now, unless congress decides to do something completely whacky, like outright ban the possession of radiated tortoises, then go on a radiated tortoise killing spree (as is what typically happens when the government gets involved in wildlife management; you know, mismanagement), I'm starting to wonder if the failure to properly distribute CBW permits will simply lead to a proliferation of captive bred radiated tortoises that USFWS simply can't track. I mean, can we as breeders (well, I'm not a radiated tortoise breeder yet, but I hope to be within the decade, fingers crossed) simply produce so many of these little buggers that we flood the market with too many targets for them to track. It will be virtually unenforceable, thereby rendering it merely one more arbitrary cruelty to be capriciously dolled out by an uncaring bureaucracy, like the 3-5 inch rule. Bottom line, we just need to keep griping about this. I wrote letters to Will Hurd throughout his tenure as my rep to support the SAVES act. I will continue to do so with his successor, whoever it is, and I will continue to write to rep Gohmert, even though he is not my congressman, to push him into renewing the charge to get this passed. This whole CBW nonsense is a damned redundancy, an absurd hurdle that will ultimately do nothing but waste taxpayer dollars and ruin random people's lives, people who are simply engaged in that all American pursuit of happiness. Write your reps, folks. The house is where this needs to move. Make it an issue in the upcoming campaign. Is this important to you? Vote your interest.

T.G.
 
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