CBW permits in 2020

dprince

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Hello all,

I've heard that these are extra hard to get now, with some very experienced people not getting renewed, and some zoos unable to get their CBW. :-( Is there anyone with experience that could share how someone successfully got one? I know it will take a while (if it's successful.) Thanks in advance for any ideas/support! :)
 

zovick

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Hello all,

I've heard that these are extra hard to get now, with some very experienced people not getting renewed, and some zoos unable to get their CBW. :-( Is there anyone with experience that could share how someone successfully got one? I know it will take a while (if it's successful.) Thanks in advance for any ideas/support! :)
Not to discourage you, but you stand almost no chance of getting a CBW Permit. I had one continuously from the time they were first required until 2019 and then let mine expire because of the current hassle in trying to get them.

A friend of mine who owns approximately 40 Radiated Tortoises had his renewal application denied because he didn't have enough genetic diversity in his group. He has bred and hatched numerous Radiated Tortoises as well as all three types of Star Tortoises, Pyxis ssp, and also several species of turtles. The USFWS has become totally irrational. He has more genetic diversity in his bunch of Radiateds than any zoo or other institution in this country.

Anyway, you can and should go ahead and apply if you feel so inclined, but be forewarned it will be an uphill battle all the way.
 

Tom

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Sorry, but it ain't happening. An animal rights PETA whacko has been appointed to that office without the consent of the governed and is fully running amok with senseless ridiculous animal rights policies that harm animals and trample the rights of the American public. Its the new standard government in our country and getting worse by the day.

As in the example Mr. Z pointed out, it makes no sense, this policy is counterproductive for helping endangered species, and the tyrant in charge who is denying these permits needs to be duly punished for his horrendous actions. That day is coming. Until then, you'll have to deal with breeders in your own state, or risk the feds coming down on you and ruining your life and everything you've built over a captive bred pet tortoise.
 

dprince

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Thank you both for your brutally honest information. That's what I was hearing too from a good friend who has worked with exotic animals and various tortoises for over 20 years. He said that even accredited zoos aren't able to get them. It just makes no good sense to me. I didn't have the full picture of why it was happening. Thank you for explaining it to me. :)
 

zovick

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Thank you both for your brutally honest information. That's what I was hearing too from a good friend who has worked with exotic animals and various tortoises for over 20 years. He said that even accredited zoos aren't able to get them. It just makes no good sense to me. I didn't have the full picture of why it was happening. Thank you for explaining it to me. :)
There is another possible option for buying/selling endangered species across state lines legally. That is to apply for an Interstate Commerce Permit. This permit is also controlled by USFWS but it is only used for a one-time transfer of animals and the requirements are not exactly the same as for the stringent (now) ones for getting a CBW Permit. These Interstate Commerce Permits have been used by people I know (who lack CBW Permits) to buy and sell Eastern Indigo Snakes as well as Radiated Tortoises over the past 10-15 years.

If you have a specific seller in mind, ask him if he will apply for one of these IC Permits to sell you some Radiateds. Getting one has been easier in the past and the wait time is a couple of months or so rather than 1-2 years (or used to be the last I knew).
 

zovick

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There is another possible option for buying/selling endangered species across state lines legally. That is to apply for an Interstate Commerce Permit. This permit is also controlled by USFWS but it is only used for a one-time transfer of animals and the requirements are not exactly the same as for the stringent (now) ones for getting a CBW Permit. These Interstate Commerce Permits have been used by people I know (who lack CBW Permits) to buy and sell Eastern Indigo Snakes as well as Radiated Tortoises over the past 10-15 years.

If you have a specific seller in mind, ask him if he will apply for one of these IC Permits to sell you some Radiateds. Getting one has been easier in the past and the wait time is a couple of months or so rather than 1-2 years (or used to be the last I knew).
Continuation of my post #5 above:

Here is a link to the instructions: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/how-to-apply.html

Here is a link to the application form itself: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-60.pdf

I did notice that the requirement is for the BUYER to obtain the IC Permit if WILDLIFE is involved. I had said above that the seller would need to apply. Either that has changed in the past few years or I hadn't been aware of which person actually received the permit to carry out those sales of which I am aware.

Also note the fact that these applications are sent to the USFWS REGIONAL OFFICE in the area where the transaction will occur rather than to the main permit offices in VA. That alone is a good thing IMHO as the application is not directly under the nose of the Chief of Permits as are the CBW applications.

Here is a conversation between some Indigo Snake enthusiasts regarding the ease of getting the IC Permit:
 
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gummybearpoop

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A friend of mine had his approved this year. It took a very long time. I don’t know if he did anything different that would improve your chances.
 

zovick

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A friend of mine had his approved this year. It took a very long time. I don’t know if he did anything different that would improve your chances.
Hey Norman,
Do you know what year that fellow submitted the application? If it was approved in 2020, I would guess it was submitted in 2018 or 2019. Can you get the exact dates of submission and final approval and post them for us, please?

I know two people who submitted applications in 2018 and were just denied in 2020. Trying to get an idea of the lag time. Thanks.

Bill
 

dprince

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Continuation of my post #5 above:

Here is a link to the instructions: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/how-to-apply.html

Here is a link to the application form itself: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-60.pdf

I did notice that the requirement is for the BUYER to obtain the IC Permit if WILDLIFE is involved. I had said above that the seller would need to apply. Either that has changed in the past few years or I hadn't been aware of which person actually received the permit to carry out those sales of which I am aware.

Also note the fact that these applications are sent to the USFWS REGIONAL OFFICE in the area where the transaction will occur rather than to the main permit offices in VA. That alone is a good thing IMHO as the application is not directly under the nose of the Chief of Permits as are the CBW applications.

Here is a conversation between some Indigo Snake enthusiasts regarding the ease of getting the IC Permit:
Thank you Bill! It's good to have options. I will check this out! :)
 

Tom

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If I move to another state and wants to take my animals with me ,do I have to get a CBW permit ?
No. The permits are only necessary if you are buying or selling across state lines. Commerce, in other words. The specified species (Galops, Radiata, Indian spotted turtles...) can be given away for free, given on breeding loans, and you can move from one state to another with your own legally obtained animals with no permits. There can be no compensation of any kind.
 

enchilada

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No. The permits are only necessary if you are buying or selling across state lines. Commerce, in other words. The specified species (Galops, Radiata, Indian spotted turtles...) can be given away for free, given on breeding loans, and you can move from one state to another with your own legally obtained animals with no permits. There can be no compensation of any kind.
So does it mean if I buy a house in every state , I don’t have to worry about getting CBW anymore ?
well I better start working because there are 49 more houses needed to buy .
 

Tom

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So does it mean if I buy a house in every state , I don’t have to worry about getting CBW anymore ?
well I better start working because there are 49 more houses needed to buy .
You have to be a legal resident of the state you are buying them in at the time of purchase. Owning a house in every state doesn't make you a legal resident.
 

enchilada

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You have to be a legal resident of the state you are buying them in at the time of purchase. Owning a house in every state doesn't make you a legal resident.
How long I have to stay in one state to become legal resident ?
 

Tom

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How long I have to stay in one state to become legal resident ?
I don't know the answer. I suspect each state will have its own legal definition of "resident", and what they will accept as proof that you "live" there.

The things is, if the feds decide to investigate you, and they decide in their own minds that you don't meet their definition of "resident", they will bring the hurt. Ask the people who have broken no law and done nothing wrong, yet had their whole lives turned inside out. Its literally tyrannical and criminal.
 

zovick

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How long I have to stay in one state to become legal resident ?
Normally the requirement for being considered a legal resident of any state is living for six months and one day each year in the given state . Also it is generally considered that the state which issued your driver's license (assuming you have one) is your state of legal residence.

As far as a USFWS definition of legal residency, I think the driver's license would be a huge determining factor as to in what state they considered anyone to legally reside.
 

dprince

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Continuation of my post #5 above:

Here is a link to the instructions: https://www.fws.gov/endangered/permits/how-to-apply.html

Here is a link to the application form itself: https://www.fws.gov/forms/3-200-60.pdf

I did notice that the requirement is for the BUYER to obtain the IC Permit if WILDLIFE is involved. I had said above that the seller would need to apply. Either that has changed in the past few years or I hadn't been aware of which person actually received the permit to carry out those sales of which I am aware.

Also note the fact that these applications are sent to the USFWS REGIONAL OFFICE in the area where the transaction will occur rather than to the main permit offices in VA. That alone is a good thing IMHO as the application is not directly under the nose of the Chief of Permits as are the CBW applications.

Here is a conversation between some Indigo Snake enthusiasts regarding the ease of getting the IC Permit:
Hi Bill,

In reviewing the form, it states, "Native Endangered and Threatened Species." Eastern Indigo snakes are indigenous to the US so they would be covered. It doesn't sound like radiateds are. :-( Do you know people who successfully used this for radiateds?
 

zovick

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Hi Bill,

In reviewing the form, it states, "Native Endangered and Threatened Species." Eastern Indigo snakes are indigenous to the US so they would be covered. It doesn't sound like radiateds are. :-( Do you know people who successfully used this for radiateds?
Yes, I do, however it was back in 2015 or 2016 or thereabouts. Perhaps the rules have been changed since then by USFWS to keep people from trying to do it with non-native tortoises like Radiateds plus other assorted foreign flora and fauna. Too bad the requirement for CBW Permits doesn't apply ONLY to native endangered animals also. That would solve this entire problem. There has been a bill in Congress for a couple of years asking that this exact thing be done, but it has died in committee.
 
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Hi all, sorry to butt into the conversation but I find myself in a bit of a dilema and would appreciate some insight.

I do not possess a CBW but I know someone in my state who does have a CBW and occasionally offers Radiated hatchlings for sale, but will be moving states by next year meaning time is ticking if I want to buy from him.

However I have family members in an unrelated state, who also doesn't have a CBW, which has a greater presence of Radiated breeders.

Not to try and circumvent the law or anything, but, hypothetically speaking, how sketchy, for a lack of a better word, would it be for said family member to legally aquire an animal and then "gift" it to me?

I am not really in a position to comfortably take in a Radiated right now, purely for a lack of husbandry experience IMO, but at the same time I don't want to miss this opportunity and regret it down the line. But the above hypothetical would give me more peace of mind in the possibility of legally getting a Radiated, for when I do feel confident I can provide the adequate care to an expesive tortoise.

Again sorry to butt in!
 

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