CBW Permit success rate?

[Ramsey]

Hello, I've been considering getting a CBW Permit and ready to apply right now. I have a few reasons.

However, I've heard stories all over the gamut about (recent) frequent denials. So I have a few questions. I've been told my chances of success are slim.

I have found this thread and it doesn't look promising.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/cbw-denial-applications.146466/

1. Does anyone have an idea of what the success rate is?

2. Are there any recent success stories?

3. Any particular approach to get an application accepted?

4. When applying, do you have to specify the species you are interested in and is the permit only good for that one species?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Sterant]

Ramsey -

What species are you interested in possessing? You need to specify the specie(s) you are applying for on the application.

The success rate in 2016 was very, very low. In a sense it was zero. I did a FOIL request of the USFWS for all CBW's for radiata that were active as of October, 2016. Those data show that only 3 CBW permits for radiated tortoises that were applied for in 2016 were granted, and all 3 of them (including mine) were for individuals that had previously held CBW permits for radiata. No new radiata CBW permits for individuals (some facilities received renewals as well) were granted in 2016. Now, this report was dated October, 2016, so some may have been granted in November or December.

The current branch chief of the USFWS holds the opinion that CBW's are for accredited facilities (AZA and others) and NOT back yard breeders.

I am the "Mr. Sterantino" that @deadheadvet is referring to in the thread you linked to above. I have held a CBW permit for radiata since 1999, but every 10 years you must completely re-apply as though you never had one. I had to do that in 2016, so technically mine was considered a "new" application - even though I held a permit for 16 years prior. Mine was the only "new" permit granted in 2016. I was also the one that escalated things to Craig Hoover, who is the supervisor of the branch chief. Mr. Hoover was helpful and did push the branch chief to grant my permit.

It seems that if you do not have extensive experience with the species you are applying for, or very applicable experience with a similar species, your chances of getting the permit approved are slim. Even with experience, it is far from a guaranteed approval.

If you decide to apply, you will have to show prior applicable experience and proper indoor and outdoor facilities. Letters of reference from respected experts in the care / maintenance / breeding of your target species won't hurt. You will also have to outline where you will be acquiring your animals. Then, you will need to check in with the USFWS weekly until it is granted. I do believe it was my tenacity, unwillingness to get denied and eventual conversation with Mr. Hoover ( in addition to 20 years experience with tortoises) that ultimately lead to my approval, and perhaps a bit of momentum that subsequently helped at least one other individual get a permit approved.

It is a frustrating process to say the least - especially since they happily take your $200 whether you are granted the permit or not.

There is a bill under review right now that will eliminate the need for CBW permits - we all have our fingers crossed on that one.

Dan

 

[Ramsey]

Ramsey -

What species are you interested in possessing? You need to specify the specie(s) you are applying for on the application.

The success rate in 2016 was very, very low. In a sense it was zero. I did a FOIL request of the USFWS for all CBW's for radiata that were active as of October, 2016. Those data show that only 3 CBW permits for radiated tortoises that were applied for in 2016 were granted, and all 3 of them (including mine) were for individuals that had previously held CBW permits for radiata. No new radiata CBW permits for individuals (some facilities received renewals as well) were granted in 2016. Now, this report was dated October, 2016, so some may have been granted in November or December.

The current branch chief of the USFWS holds the opinion that CBW's are for accredited facilities (AZA and others) and NOT back yard breeders.

I am the "Mr. Sterantino" that @deadheadvet is referring to in the thread you linked to above. I have held a CBW permit for radiata since 1999, but every 10 years you must completely re-apply as though you never had one. I had to do that in 2016, so technically mine was considered a "new" application - even though I held a permit for 16 years prior. Mine was the only "new" permit granted in 2016. I was also the one that escalated things to Craig Hoover, who is the supervisor of the branch chief. Mr. Hoover was helpful and did push the branch chief to grant my permit.

It seems that if you do not have extensive experience with the species you are applying for, or very applicable experience with a similar species, your chances of getting the permit approved are slim. Even with experience, it is far from a guaranteed approval.

If you decide to apply, you will have to show prior applicable experience and proper indoor and outdoor facilities. Letters of reference from respected experts in the care / maintenance / breeding of your target species won't hurt. You will also have to outline where you will be acquiring your animals. Then, you will need to check in with the USFWS weekly until it is granted. I do believe it was my tenacity, unwillingness to get denied and eventual conversation with Mr. Hoover ( in addition to 20 years experience with tortoises) that ultimately lead to my approval, and perhaps a bit of momentum that subsequently helped at least one other individual get a permit approved.

It is a frustrating process to say the least - especially since they happily take your $200 whether you are granted the permit or not.

There is a bill under review right now that will eliminate the need for CBW permits - we all have our fingers crossed on that one.

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the detailed reply. Unfortunately it's not what I wanted to hear, but c'est la vie.

Sounds like the horror stories are correct. The whole process seems wrong. Something that is governed like CBW should be more objective than subjective. Definitely shouldn't be one single person making judgement calls.

I digress. We we're thinking to get a cbw permit for Galapagos tortoise species. We've been considering getting one in the future and want to be prepared.

However, it sounds like my hopes and energy might be better focused on this upcoming bill you reference.

Thanks

Ramsey

 

[enchilada]

its probably easier to move to california/Florida than get CBW permit approved

 

[Tom]

Ramsey, there are lots of legal ways around this. There are many breeders in CA. I don't do anything illegal and won't advocate anything illegal, but you can get all the radiata you want here in CA legally. I know of one breeding facility that will sell you as many as you want and all from different parents, and I know of several other people that breed them.

 

[enchilada]

Ramsey, there are lots of legal ways around this. There are many breeders in CA. I don't do anything illegal and won't advocate anything illegal, but you can get all the radiata you want here in CA legally. I know of one breeding facility that will sell you as many as you want and all from different parents, and I know of several other people that breed them.

could you recommend some breeders in southern california?

 

[Tom]

could you recommend some breeders in southern california?

The system that I've worked out is to send me your info in a PM and I forward it to the sellers.

 

[BILBO-03]

So can you buy a radiated in California then transport it across state lines or do you need a permit for that?

 

[Sterant]

You can buy a radiated tortoise in your state of primary residence , from another resident of that state with no permit. If you wish to SELL that tortoise across state lines, both you and the out-of-state buyer would need a permit.

If you are a resident of Nevada, you cannot drive into California, buy a radiated tortoise and then bring it back to Nevada......without both parties having a permit.

The CBW permits are about commerce. You can give a tortoise as a gift across state lines, loan a tortoise across state lines, or trade a tortoise for other tortoises of the same species across state lines with no permit. If there is any money changing hands, or something else of value, both parties (seller and buyer) must have permits.

 

[Ramsey]

You can buy a radiated tortoise in your state of primary residence , from another resident of that state with no permit. If you wish to SELL that tortoise across state lines, both you and the out-of-state buyer would need a permit.

If you are a resident of Nevada, you cannot drive into California, buy a radiated tortoise and then bring it back to Nevada......without both parties having a permit.

The CBW permits are about commerce. You can give a tortoise as a gift across state lines, loan a tortoise across state lines, or trade a tortoise for other tortoises of the same species across state lines with no permit. If there is any money changing hands, or something else of value, both parties (seller and buyer) must have permits.

I also strongly believe that you can take your tortoise with you across state lines if you move. It's not changing ownership. I'm not a 100% sure, but I can't imagine any other option.

 

[Ramsey]

Ramsey, there are lots of legal ways around this. There are many breeders in CA. I don't do anything illegal and won't advocate anything illegal, but you can get all the radiata you want here in CA legally. I know of one breeding facility that will sell you as many as you want and all from different parents, and I know of several other people that breed them.

Hey Tom,

Good info, we'll have to have a chat over the phone about these avenues. I am not familiar with radiata species but was more interested in possibly getting a Galapagos one day. There was only one breeder here in SoCal who I am familiar with and their prices were very hiked. There seem to be more options out of state, hence my motive.

 

[Tom]

I also strongly believe that you can take your tortoise with you across state lines if you move. It's not changing ownership. I'm not a 100% sure, but I can't imagine any other option.

You are correct. What is illegal is selling one of the "protected" species across state lines. If you are moving and take your own tortoises with you, no money or other compensation has changed hands, so no CBW permit would be required.

 

[Tom]

Hey Tom,

Good info, we'll have to have a chat over the phone about these avenues. I am not familiar with radiata species but was more interested in possibly getting a Galapagos one day. There was only one breeder here in SoCal who I am familiar with and their prices were very hiked. There seem to be more options out of state, hence my motive.

They are a species I intend to work with too.

Last count there were 8 and soon to be 9 people producing them in the US.

A friend of mine is hoping to be number 10 right here in CA.

 

[Ramsey]

They are a species I intend to work with too.

Last count there were 8 and soon to be 9 people producing them in the US.

A friend of mine is hoping to be number 10 right here in CA.

Oh that's excellent news. I'll be keeping an eye out.

I wonder how much traction HR 2603 has. Sounds like I need to do my part and write a letter for the cause.