Carapace Like A Sponge

[Madkins007]

Chairman, I would wonder if shell color is a secondary issue to behaviors- maybe the lighter shelled wild torts spend more time in the sun, so the light color reflects some of the intensity, while most dark shells spend less time in the open sun? Just a thought, so far.

For a moment I wondered if melanin might play a role, but melanin heavy Red-foots pyramid with the best of them.

 

[Seiryu]

For sulcatas, the size where humidity doesn't seem to matter as much anymore is around 6-8", from what I can tell.

The pattern of growth, either smooth or pyramided, is established in the first few weeks of life. Once they reach a certain size it doesn't seem to matter what you do as far as humidity. This also corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start staying above ground more of the time.

Haven't been on in a while, but I have been lurking.

So the pattern of smoothness VS bumpiness in your opinion is from the first few weeks of life.

I do have a question then. Most breeders just will not sell hatchlings at younger than 4 months, for good reasons. I don't think the whole spraying the shells of desert type tortoises is common knowledge to most breeders.

So if they are not sprayed early on, then likely most hatchling tortoises you get regardless of what YOU do to them when they arrive, may not prevent the pyramiding anyways?

Your sulcatas and leopards were obtained by you from the get go, and are growing smooth with the soaks and spraying the shells. But not everyone has access to torts when they are first born either.

So far my Sif (leopard tortoise, babcocki) is as smooth as she was when I got her, and I spray her shell 4-10 times a day, with humidity at 65-95% at all times. I am hoping it stays this way, but if it's true that they need to be well hydrated, shells sprayed, high humidity right off, then likely what I'm doing (according to a lot of examples) might slow things down, but won't prevent pyramiding fully then.

 

[Tom]

For sulcatas, the size where humidity doesn't seem to matter as much anymore is around 6-8", from what I can tell.

The pattern of growth, either smooth or pyramided, is established in the first few weeks of life. Once they reach a certain size it doesn't seem to matter what you do as far as humidity. This also corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start staying above ground more of the time.

Haven't been on in a while, but I have been lurking.

So the pattern of smoothness VS bumpiness in your opinion is from the first few weeks of life.

I do have a question then. Most breeders just will not sell hatchlings at younger than 4 months, for good reasons. I don't think the whole spraying the shells of desert type tortoises is common knowledge to most breeders.

So if they are not sprayed early on, then likely most hatchling tortoises you get regardless of what YOU do to them when they arrive, may not prevent the pyramiding anyways?

Your sulcatas and leopards were obtained by you from the get go, and are growing smooth with the soaks and spraying the shells. But not everyone has access to torts when they are first born either.

So far my Sif (leopard tortoise, babcocki) is as smooth as she was when I got her, and I spray her shell 4-10 times a day, with humidity at 65-95% at all times. I am hoping it stays this way, but if it's true that they need to be well hydrated, shells sprayed, high humidity right off, then likely what I'm doing (according to a lot of examples) might slow things down, but won't prevent pyramiding fully then.

Rob, you hit the nail on the head. I made mention of this before. Its great that those of us in this "movement" are able to reach pet owners with individual torts, but the real damage is being done before people even get their torts. How do we reach these old time breeders? I'm working on the ones I know, including the friend I got my new leos from. I'm sending him regular pics and updates so he can see how good his torts can look and how healthy they can be. Its one thing to sit there and try to tell an experienced tort person how you think it ought to be. Its entirely another to SHOW them their own stock looking better and healthier than they've ever seen! The guy I got Daisy from is pretty impressed with my new hatchlings.

This has been a big problem for me lately in trying to obtain new torts. Breeders don't wanna hear it. The only thing any of us can do is use breeders who do "get it". Then, the others will have no choice, but to listen. This is why I constantly refer people to the Fifes. There prices are competitive, but other breeders sometimes under cut them. I can't understand how a few dollars one way or the other plays any part whatsoever in someone's decision to buy a baby tort. In my opinion, one should buy the healthiest tort possible, even if its twice the money. Really, in ten years is $10 or $20 going to matter at all? The thing is, you can usually see the pyramiding when it is starting in babies. There is usually a distinct edge to the scutes. You can catch it with your fingernail. If you pick one that is pretty smooth and get it right into the humidity and moisture from the day you get it, it will minimize any previous damage, if there has been any.

BTW, most breeders want to move out their babies pretty quick. Four months is longer than most will wait. Four weeks is more the norm in my experience. Some sulcata breeders push them out a few days after they absorb the yolk sac and start eating.

 

[chairman]

Chairman, I would wonder if shell color is a secondary issue to behaviors- maybe the lighter shelled wild torts spend more time in the sun, so the light color reflects some of the intensity, while most dark shells spend less time in the open sun? Just a thought, so far.

For a moment I wondered if melanin might play a role, but melanin heavy Red-foots pyramid with the best of them.

I can see the color and behavior thing going both ways. Light tortoises would need to spend more time in the sun than dark tortoises to get adequately warmed up. However, if the dark pigment in tortoise shells works like it does in people, then darker tortoises will require more time in the sun than lighter ones in order for their body to produce vitamin D for the processing of calcium. But since darker tortoises will generate more heat in that time, one would think they'd have greater dehydration issues than lighter ones. Sort of a catch 22 there.

Your example with the redfoots sparked another thought in my head... redfoots get shell rot much more easily than sulcatas. I would think this is a sign that there ought to be a significant difference between the shell materials in the two species (that ought to affect pyramiding). Yet it was the "mist till they drip" redfoot advice that finally got baby sulcatas growing nice and smooth. So... it seems that pyramiding is prevented using the same method with two tortoises with seemingly different shell chemistry.

And yet another thing that confounds me... all the big tortoises seem to face their biggest risk of pyramiding before they reach 6" SCL. Yet you almost have to make an effort to get many of the tortoises that never get bigger than 6" SCL to pyramid. If all tortoise scutes grow the same way, then why don't the little guys have the same problems as the bigger guys? Are the scutes on young small-breed tortoises thicker than those of young large-breed tortoises? Anyone have any x-rays of baby tortoises of various species that we could compare scute thickness on?

I guess I should consider myself lucky that I've only been pondering pyramiding for a couple years, and not a couple decades... it seems like it could lead to chronic headaches.

 

[Tom]

Mike, I have a theory on why the little torts seem to pyramid less. As long as I've been keeping torts, most people keep Testudo species on a more humidity inducing, natural substrate. The norm for so many years for the "desert" species was rabbit pellets or grass hay pellets. I used to use sani-chips. Very dry. Also, because most Testudo tend to be a bit shy (compared to a sulcata, anyway) they typically have several hides in their enclosures. These hides would tend to stay fairly humid on top of a natural substrate. Think how many sulcata and leopard enclosure photos you've seen on the forum here with no hide or just an open fronted dry hide.

 

[Madkins007]

@Chairman, re: shell color- I suspect that shell color does a lot for things for a tortoise- camouflage has to be a big one, protecting it from overheating in really sunny habitats, helping it warm or thermoregulate, etc. I suspect there may be SOME difference in chemistry- not only shell rot, but why Testudos seem to pyramid very little compared to some others, etc.

Have we ever put together a master list of pyramiding species (that should not pyramid)? We know Red-foot, Leopard, and Sulcata are at high risk from this thread.

Do Testudos pyramid? Hinge-backs? North American Torts? Chacos? I admit my research in the other species has not been as deep as it has in Red-foots.

 

[dmmj]

these are the species I have seen pyramiding in, either in real life or in pics. leopards sulcatas redfoots, CDT, 1 RES and russians. To date I personally have never seen it in box, hingebacks, or any others I would be interested in knowing if anyone has seen any in these other species. Oh wait I forgot to add aldabras to the pyramided species.

 

[Kristina]

Greeks, Stars, Radiateds...

 

[DeanS]

these are the species I have seen pyramiding in, either in real life or in pics. leopards sulcatas redfoots, CDT, 1 RES and russians. To date I personally have never seen it in box, hingebacks, or any others I would be interested in knowing if anyone has seen any in these other species. Oh wait I forgot to add aldabras to the pyramided species.

...and, of course, Galaps!

 

[J. Ellis]

I have to give kudos where they are due. It all makes sense and when you have living proof (such as Tom) it is irrefutable. Topics and discussions such as this make me proud to be a member of the TFO. There is no sniping at each other or trolling, it's a major step up from other forums I've been involved with.

Let's build an imaginary bed- it is an air bed that gets longer and wider as you inflate it. Next, put a bunch of fitted sheets on it, the biggest on the bottom, and each one on top being a bit smaller.


As we inflate the bed, the sheets SHOULD smoothly ride up and slip off, collapsing into a thin heap on top. If we starch the sheets, to simulate dryness, they would still pop off, but form a fluffy pyramid as they did so.

The above quote is one of the most ingenous analogies I have ever heard; getting the point across intelligently and concisely.

 

[Balboa]

Here's a question Tom.... and I think this has been discussed, but I want to be sure.... Is it that the scutes shrink in, or the "cracks" swell up. I've noticed on Rocky that she usually has a raised lip at the cracks, like reverse pyramiding. Maybe the same phenominon, but it really looks more like its a lip around the cracks to me. You can kinda see it in this pic
http://tortoiseforum.org/attachment.php?aid=6464
from my pharaoh thread.

One thing to note, is that the "cracks" in the bone are at the center, or centerish, of the scutes. They overlap to improve strength, just like when you're laying down flooring on subfloor, you overlap the sheets.... hmm well I dunno, maybe alot of you haven't done that one. lol

As much as I hate to say it.... it seems odd to me that a dead pyramided tort has never been cut open. I think science will suffer in this case, cuz I think Adrienne is going to pull through, but I probably would've been willing to donate her to the cause if she hadn't. I couldn't do it though, someone would be gettin her on ice. Maybe that's the problem.... some other guys poor lost tort has to get cut up, not MINE.

And I mean no offense to my more experienced brethren who I respect highly... but I'm starting to think the "once its started, its hard to stop pyramiding" is....
RUBBISH
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-I-m-sorry-Pharaoh
OF course it was true when we were keeping our animals INCORRECTLY... What else could you say when you corrected "the problem" and cut out all the protein, and what do you know, she's still pyramiding, gosh darn, must be hard to stop once its started.
Please do correct me on this if I'm wrong, and I just got lucky on Rocky, or it is just cuz she's 6 inches, but has anyone here NOT been able to stop pyramiding once they started keeping the shell hydrated?

Which I tend to agree, a big part of having the high humidity probably is just to keep the shell from drying, not so much for the humidity itself, except that, I've noticed with Rocky being cold blooded, if she moves from a colder place to a hotter place, water condenses on her shell

So I guess darn, I got nothing on sponginess... sorry Tom.... But the unfolding sheet bit really fits the bill. If the new Scute material is too dead and dry too quick , it will stay creased and pyramiding will result.... and that does seem to tie in a bit... if the new material is too rigid and dry, the carapace won't have the kind of flexibility it probably should have in order to deal with changing internal fluid levels of the body.

dang did someone else already say that and I missed it..... it just occured to me as I was typing it... A dried out shell can't flex... as our body fluid levels change we actually do get a little bigger or a little smaller... the skin stretches. Being mostly stuck in a shell, as the tort hydrates there needs to be some give in the shell to allow room for more water. A tortoise STUCK in a rigid shell won't be able to take in as much water, further exasperating his condition.

Anyways.... COOL THREAD TOM!! you da man

 

[kbaker]

I quickly looked over the thread so sorry if I missed something...

Tom mentioned a mistake I am sure we all made while soaking regularly. I would dry them off before putting them back into their homes. Another mistake I would make because of what others suggested is soaking in shallow water. I think that the recommendation in books is not to go over half way up the shell. I soaked my earlier tortoises often and still got some pyramiding. And it was always more on the higher scutes that never got soaked.

So I think Tom is headed in the right direction.

 

[Madkins007]

Balboa- I THINK that the raised or thickened growth line is the first early warning of potential pyramiding to come.

I SUSPECT that the edges of the scutes that are tucked in between each other and that have to slide out to form a new growth ring are dry enough that they do not flatten out as they slide out, making a thick ring. The next time it happens, the new thick ring adds to the last, etc.

I have a mildly pyramided shell at work and have been trying to work up the guts to run it through the band saw- its been there a couple months now. I really want to know the answers, but a.) I really loved Japuta, and b.) since it is only mild pyramiding, I am not sure I would learn what I want to know. I would hate to saw it and not get anything useful from it.

Stopping pyramiding- I don't think anyone has ever said you cannot 'stop' pyramiding, just that once it starts, you cannot erase the previous effects of it. Although, I have heard of some keepers who keep their tortoises in conditions where the shells are polished smooth by the animals crawling over stuff and each other with a slightly gritty substrate. Not sure that these are good conditions and I am not suggesting that sort of treatment.

 

[Balboa]

well that would certainly burst my bubble Mark, lol
I sincerely hope that is not the case here, but time will tell. There is a definate flattening going on, maybe this next pyramid step is just really big laterally, which I'll take as at least movement in a better direction. It makes me wonder if its is a hyper-critical situation, let that crevice dry out even a little and blammo, damage done.

I totally get your hesitation on using the bandsaw.... that has to be tough. I really don't think I could do it.

 

[Tom]

Balboa, it does take a long time to try to stop pyramiding. Years. Daisy is finally getting smooth growth, but it took two years of "swamp" living to BEGIN to see a difference. This is also very hard to quantify because there are a million variables. How long was it kept dry? How dry? Humid hide Box? How humid? Soaks? For how long? Ambient room humidity? Outdoor humidity? Substrate? Etc...

I got Daisy at 12 weeks old already badly pyramiding. See Pic:

I gave her a humid hide box and soaked her from day one, but saw no change after several months. Next I swapped out the substrate. No Change. After nine months with no change, I went buck wild and covered the top, made the substrate wet, sprayed her and the enclosure all day long, soaked two or three times a day, humidified the whole room, etc... After two years of this "swamp" routine, I'm now seeing some smooth growth. Here's some recent pics:

Now you tell me. Is it stoppable? I went to monumental effort. I took things to an extreme that most people won't. When I say it is hard to stop, I really mean it is really HARD to stop. This is why I come on so strong to newbies with little babies. You can't undo it ever AND its really hard to break that pattern once that pattern is established. The sooner they get into the right conditions, the less damage will be done and the sooner positive results can be seen.

 

[Balboa]

Ummm Tom.... I see tons of smooth growth, many good rings.
Yes, she has "knobs" and they stick out like vertical faces on the smooth growth you've put on her. You've done great by her bud.
Interestingly, yes there is still a bit of slope on the top there, but you can see the drastic improvement made early on, I can SEE where you took over.

---

I should add to this looking more. Daisy is an amzing study... part of the puzzle is in her.... on some angles smoooooth... on some, I can see why you're frustrated... something in how the scutes grow, certain geometries aren't lining up, so part of the pyramiding continues, others stop abruptly.... hmmm

 

[Tom]

Ummm Tom.... I see tons of smooth growth, many good rings.
Yes, she has "knobs" and they stick out like vertical faces on the smooth growth you've put on her. You've done great by her bud.
Interestingly, yes there is still a bit of slope on the top there, but you can see the drastic improvement made early on, I can SEE where you took over.

---

I should add to this looking more. Daisy is an amzing study... part of the puzzle is in her.... on some angles smoooooth... on some, I can see why you're frustrated... something in how the scutes grow, certain geometries aren't lining up, so part of the pyramiding continues, others stop abruptly.... hmmm

---

Good observation. The pattern you are seeing there is pretty universal for all sulcatas. Maggie and I sometimes compare notes on Bob and my adults. They seem to grow and pyramid the same way with an "accent" on certain scutes or scute joints.

Interestingly, almost all sulcatas start to smooth out once they reach a certain size, even though conditions haven't changed. This corresponds to the time in the wild when they would start spending more time above ground in the hot desiccating sun. This is why I also think that some species, notably redfoots, are never safely "out of the woods". There is not such a distinct change in the environment for the forrest species between baby and adult and even the adults live in a pretty humid and wet environment. This is in stark contrast to desert species like sulcatas and leopards where the adults live in dry, arid micro-climates while their babies stay hidden in damp, humid micro-niches like burrows, plant root balls, leaf litter and areas of tall elephant grass.