Carapace irregular in places - Western Hermann's

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Hi there
thanks for any comments in advance.

I've always noticed that our Oogy's carapace isn't quite symmetrical, or as I would expect, in 1-2 places.... while it has never concerned us, I thought I should seek some opinions on whether there are any health issues relating to the visible development of the carapace.

Maybe useful to zoom in closer to see what i mean. Please excuse the colour tint on the photo.
If you look especially at the area bounded by a red rectangle, (and in fact, the area just below the rectangle towards the front, in the middle) you can see there are some quite irregular shapes there. Anything to worry about here? I don't see any signs of pyramiding, the carapace was like this when he arrived as a wee one.
I'm interested to know if the early assumption we made - that the carapace must have been knocked or damaged in infancy in some way - is likely correct?
Either way we love him just as he is.
thanks any thoughts.

IMG_2726.jpg
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
What type of basking bulb has this tortoise had?
Humidity?
What substrate?
How much time outside in the sun ins warm weather, and what type of UV bulb inside?
Can we see the enclosure?
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Hi Tom,
thanks for your reply
I will provide full details as soon as I get some time off...very busy weekend working so it may need to wait till Monday.
Your reply concerned me a little this morning, so I quickly double checked old photos and film from earlier this year and it is definitely the case that the shapes and colouration on his carapace were (right from the start) always the same as they are now (except he was a bit smaller, of course).
In short he has spent 90% of the time inside (with the odd half-day outside in a larger container while sunny) we have been using a starter table inside (which he is starting to out-grow, but not managed yet to replace) and a 100w Arcadia D3 basking lamp in a warm and very bright, white painted room which lets in plenty of sunlight and is also well lit all day every day using spotlights which brightly illuminate, and reflect off the white walls surrounding his table.
Humidity is maintained unscientifically (but diligently) via very frequent and regular misting of the substrate (always several thorough mistings every couple of hours) but i will provide a more detailed history of substrate, all other info and a photo ASAP after the weekend.
Thanks and i do hope this isn't something to worry about. Details to follow.
Burn
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
I'm stuck at work today but can't focus at all because this does worry me, especially with the absence of any replies saying "well sometimes the carapace isn't symmetrical and that is just how it is" .
I haven't studied 1000s of photos of other tortoises, but probably seen photos of a hundred or two and I've not really seen anything like it. As time went on this year I started paying more attention to carapaces generally but obviously photos of Sulcatas, etc, are only so much use given the fact carapace depth, look can vary between the different species.
The only changeever with the substrate (fine orchid bark since recently) was that we previously used sterilised topsoil for the base layer and a product called "Komodo Eco Tortoise Terrain" on top couple inches which is a quite loamy brown mix which cost quite a lot and (at the time) we believed as better than plain soil, it is not sandy.
The table is one of those Vivexotic things with a seperate hide section and a glass panel at front.
Using laptop right now but will post a photo of his enclosure from my phone asap. One problem i have is that my phone has plenty of videos but very few stills as they always look terrible with the colour cast, but there must be a couple there from earlier in the year.
It would be amazing if someone chipped in to reassure me this isn't necessarily a sign of anything worrying or pointing to any deficiencies with temp, humidity, diet, etc, but on the other hand if we are doing anything wrong it needs addressing.

Edit : The fact is though, this is how his carapace is, and i cannot see the fundamental shapes ever changing, so i guess my question would also be - why does this *appear* to be such an unusual condition? He's been full of life since day 1 and seems very happy and it feels odd having a carapace that isn't seen 100s oftimes before by experience owners/ breeders.
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Managed to find a photo of the enclosure as it was right from the start, (always likely to be a bit embarrassing, it has been through several iterations since then in terms of foliage, items of interest, so please IMG_1785.JPGdon't judge this too harshly! Also, the light was only at the Hide end right at the beginning, (we thought keeping Hide area humid was a priority) but after a week or two we realised the hotter area should be more at the middle so we re-positioned the lamp. The pebbles seemed useless as well and were not present for long.
Since changing to Orchid Bark, which we made quite a bit deeper in some areas to encourage burrowing, it has all seemed a lot more manageable and there's also less urgent need for constant misting as was the case previously...but the habit is ingrained now anyway so we all mist the enclosure every time we check him out.
Temps have always hovered around 80-85 at carapace level below the lamp and warm at night (again surface measured) at around 75 usually, with little if any variation in the room itself.
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
This photo is from the very first day after we received him, using the pen for scale because we were marvelling at how tiny he was.

Tortoise.jpg
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Just noticed the date of that 'pen' photo: 14 May. I thought we had got him in early April.
:rolleyes:
For further reference here are 2 pix i snapped quickly this morning from side profile:
IMG_2757.jpgIMG_2756.jpg
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Apologies for photo overkill i am just trying to illustrate Oogy's carapace shape as well as possible.
IMG_2760.jpg
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
I've drawn attention to the irregularity at the rear already, but these 2 pix (zoomed in from 2 photos above) have a red outline around a small panel at the front which frankly doesn't make sense being there. Or - please tell me, as I am only starting out on this journey - am i imagining this kind of form is 'super unusual' and maybe I should stop trying to play detective ? Thanks
1.jpgScreen Shot 2020-11-28 at 14.34.49.png
 

Ink

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
2,455
Location (City and/or State)
Virginia
How often do you soak him?
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
How often do you soak him?
Every couple of days.
Wondering what people are seeing here. I will say the iPhone X i got recently , used close up, makes the carapace ridges appear quite pronounced and i'm wondering if that's what is concerning people - my questions so far have related primarily to the layout, and shape of the individual..are they called scutes?
(I know that pyramiding is something to look out for, but as far as i know pyramiding is not directly related to the placement, and shape of each 'panel', but rather to the form they take growing upwards?
Sorry for not being 100% certain what the panels are called. I will google now.
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
I've had my wife carefully take a closeup picture just now from behind which finally shows, much more accurately, how the basic layout/ positioning of the scutes makes little visual sense, towards the rear area.
Q: Is our tortoise a, for want of a better word, freak?
Again to emphasise i am questioning the position, size, and symmetry of the scutes as my first question. Just seems to make not much visual sense.. should we worry?IMG_2765.jpg
 

zovick

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
3,388
I've had my wife carefully take a closeup picture just now from behind which finally shows, much more accurately, how the basic layout/ positioning of the scutes makes little visual sense, towards the rear area.
Q: Is our tortoise a, for want of a better word, freak?
Again to emphasise i am questioning the position, size, and symmetry of the scutes as my first question. Just seems to make not much visual sense.. should we worry?View attachment 311912
Other members have apparently misinterpreted your first post and have been responding with husbandry questions in order to help you with the keeping of the tortoise. The asymmetry and irregularity in the sizes and shapes of the scutes on your tortoise are purely cosmetic. You may rest assured that there are no known health problems associated with extra and/or abnormally shaped scutes.

Pyramiding of the scutes IS an indication of husbandry issues, and there does seem to be a bit of that starting to become evident on your tortoise. The other members' recommendations based on your photos and your answers to their questions can help you to overcome that situation.
 
Last edited:

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Zovick thanks very much for reply as it has completely put my mind at ease about my primary reason for posting this thread which seems to be poorly titled and maybe explained by myself.
So it appears the smaller, irregular and differently shaped scutes are just 'one of those things'. I'm glad because it has been a niggling question since Day 1

As far as any pyramiding goes I will await further comments here, and tomorrow i'll take a photo of his enclosure and try to provide any further details which may help.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I've had my wife carefully take a closeup picture just now from behind which finally shows, much more accurately, how the basic layout/ positioning of the scutes makes little visual sense, towards the rear area.
Q: Is our tortoise a, for want of a better word, freak?
Again to emphasise i am questioning the position, size, and symmetry of the scutes as my first question. Just seems to make not much visual sense.. should we worry?View attachment 311912
It is a holiday weekend here in the US, Thanksgiving, and people are spending time with family. This is one possible reason you haven't gotten a lot of comments. This is also an unusual case. Split scutes and scute abnormalities are fairly common, but your tortoise is unusually aberrant. I use the word aberrant as it is the best describer of what I'm seeing, but that doesn't mean it is bad or unhealthy in any way. Aberrant is defined as: "Diverging from the normal type."

Another note to help you get more answers in a more timely fashion is to hit "reply" when answering someone's post on a thread. This notifies the person you are addressing that you've replied to their post. Or you can use the @ symbol with their user name and it will notify the member that you've mentioned them. Like this: @Bmatic

Your tortoises carapace is unusual, and it was likely caused by high incubation temperatures. Did the breeder tell you your tortoise ws "incubated for female"? There may have been a temporary temperature spike at a critical time during incubation, and sometimes this just happens for no reason at all. In any case, I agree with the assessment from @zovick that this is just cosmetic, and nothing to worry about. Many people prefer and ask for torts with unusual scute patterns like this and find it attractive and unique.

My previous questions were aimed at making sure there wasn't some husbandry issue causing or aggravating this condition. It looks like you've done a pretty good job with the habitat and the tortoise. I would recommend a few changes to prevent further pyramiding, but overall all, thing look pretty good there. MVBs , like the 100 watt Arcadia bulb you mentioned, cause pyramiding. I'd get a different bulb, and use a HO tube from Arcadia for indoor UV when needed. More info on heating and lighting:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:
  1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
  2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
  3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
  4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

Here is the most current and correct care info for your species. You can review this and make changes where you see fit. Questions are welcome.
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
Small chance, but if anyone else reading has a Western Hermann's roughly 1 year old and also uses a recent iPhone and can try and take a well -lit, close up comparative photo of their tortoise's scutes i am concerned the fact camera is alongside seems to (to me) slightly exaggerate the ridging which isn't nearly as noticeable using the naked eye (a superior device).
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
It is a holiday weekend here in the US, Thanksgiving, and people are spending time with family. This is one possible reason you haven't gotten a lot of comments. This is also an unusual case. Split scutes and scute abnormalities are fairly common, but your tortoise is unusually aberrant. I use the word aberrant as it is the best describer of what I'm seeing, but that doesn't mean it is bad or unhealthy in any way. Aberrant is defined as: "Diverging from the normal type."

Another note to help you get more answers in a more timely fashion is to hit "reply" when answering someone's post on a thread. This notifies the person you are addressing that you've replied to their post. Or you can use the @ symbol with their user name and it will notify the member that you've mentioned them. Like this: @Bmatic

Your tortoises carapace is unusual, and it was likely caused by high incubation temperatures. Did the breeder tell you your tortoise ws "incubated for female"? There may have been a temporary temperature spike at a critical time during incubation, and sometimes this just happens for no reason at all. In any case, I agree with the assessment from @zovick that this is just cosmetic, and nothing to worry about. Many people prefer and ask for torts with unusual scute patterns like this and find it attractive and unique.

My previous questions were aimed at making sure there wasn't some husbandry issue causing or aggravating this condition. It looks like you've done a pretty good job with the habitat and the tortoise. I would recommend a few changes to prevent further pyramiding, but overall all, thing look pretty good there. MVBs , like the 100 watt Arcadia bulb you mentioned, cause pyramiding. I'd get a different bulb, and use a HO tube from Arcadia for indoor UV when needed. More info on heating and lighting:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:
  1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
  2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
  3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
  4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

Here is the most current and correct care info for your species. You can review this and make changes where you see fit. Questions are welcome.
I am so sorry for my seeming impatience (not the case) to be honest I was mainly adding (better) photos thinking they would be viewed at once by other people whenever they chose to dip in here. I wasn't demanding attention but as you'll have noted my query was a bit clumsily worded. Equally - I had totally forgotten it is a Holiday weekend there - Happy Thanksgiving, everyone celebrating that, and pardon me for the regular bumps on the thread!
Onto your reply above: I thank you most sincerely for the detailed reply, particularly coming on the above mentioned weekend !
I will note points carefully and i will add any actual new info which seems relevant here (rather than any more photos)
Again sorry for overkill ... i don't hit 'reply' usually precisely because i don't want to disturb people with notifications! I can see why it makes sense now though.
regards, Burn
 

zolasmum

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
May 19, 2015
Messages
2,003
I think Oogy looks lovely, and the variation in his scutes adds character and distinction. Our tortoise Zola had a small nick in his shell,over his head ,when he first came to us, and over 19 years this has grown much longer and more visible - however, we think it adds to his charm and makes him unique.(Also in the unlikely event Oogy goes missing, you would be able to identify him easily.)
Angie
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
I am so sorry for my seeming impatience (not the case) to be honest I was mainly adding (better) photos thinking they would be viewed at once by other people whenever they chose to dip in here. I wasn't demanding attention but as you'll have noted my query was a bit clumsily worded. Equally - I had totally forgotten it is a Holiday weekend there - Happy Thanksgiving, everyone celebrating that, and pardon me for the regular bumps on the thread!
Onto your reply above: I thank you most sincerely for the detailed reply, particularly coming on the above mentioned weekend !
I will note points carefully and i will add any actual new info which seems relevant here (rather than any more photos)
Again sorry for overkill ... i don't hit 'reply' usually precisely because i don't want to disturb people with notifications! I can see why it makes sense now though.
regards, Burn
No apologies necessary. Its totally fine. Usually posts get much more response faster than what yours did, so I was just explaining. All of us are here to talk tortoises. Your questions and enthusiasm fuel the conversation. Don't hesitate to quote people or notify them so we can all have MORE tortoise conversation! :) :tort:
 

Bmatic

Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2020
Messages
33
Location (City and/or State)
London UK
No apologies necessary. Its totally fine. Usually posts get much more response faster than what yours did, so I was just explaining. All of us are here to talk tortoises. Your questions and enthusiasm fuel the conversation. Don't hesitate to quote people or notify them so we can all have MORE tortoise conversation! :) :tort:

Cheers Tom, and have a great weekend.
Penny finally dropped for me when Zovick clarified that issue. The general silence from others appeared to possibly signify something possibly ominous! - its typical i would imagine the worst.
I will need to return to the lighting details after Monday because there are a couple of product-type terms you use which are unfamiliar so i might need a refresher but i will google those first as that may provide the equivalent UK term.
 
Top