Can scute irregularities predict sex?

StarSapphire22

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So I read in another thread today that someone's new sulcata hatching was likely a female because it has an extra scute (apparently, extra scutes happen when incubated at higher temperatures?). I'm wondering how accurate this is and if it applies to multiple species...and, conversely, does a missing scute indicate male?

My Hermanns, Littlefoot, is missing his fourth vertebral scute, it would be interesting to know if he's likely male. :)
 

Levi the Leopard

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Scute abnormalities are usually a a side effect from higher incubation temps. There is also a theory it is hereditary.
Higher incubation temps produce females which is why people hope for female when they see extra scutes.
I've had a confirmed female RES with extra scutes.
I have a Leopard hatchling right now with extra scutes that I hope is female.
Tom named one of his extra scute SA leopards "big mama" until "she" flashed HIS boy parts! Lol

It's not a guarantee that you'll have female but a higher probability.
 

EricIvins

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Extra scutes happen for a myriad of reasons, and scute deformities are not a good indicator of sex...
 

Tom

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Team Gomberg said:
Scute abnormalities are usually a a side effect from higher incubation temps. There is also a theory it is hereditary.
Higher incubation temps produce females which is why people hope for female when they see extra scutes.
I've had a confirmed female RES with extra scutes.
I have a Leopard hatchling right now with extra scutes that I hope is female.
Tom named one of his extra scute SA leopards "big mama" until "she" flashed HIS boy parts! Lol

It's not a guarantee that you'll have female but a higher probability.

This has also been my experience.

Most of the split vertebral scuted animals I have seen have been female. I can't think of an exception, but someone could probably find one. My male leopard that Heather referred to has two small additional costal scutes, but the vertebrals are normal. He was incubated and hatched in the ground, so I have no way of knowing what the incubation temps were.
 

StarSapphire22

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Interesting...so any scute irregularities (including MISSING scutes?) COULD predict sex, but it isn't always accurate or reliable...am I understanding correctly?

Other question...could rate of growth indicate potential sex? For instance, my Littlefoot is 4.5 months old...he's grown 1/2" in a little over a month and is now 2.25" long...if he's male, he's already about 1/3 of his full grown size, which just seems crazy to me!

I know that the only real reliable way is when they're old enough to tell, but it's interesting to learn this stuff. :)
 

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Jacqui

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Without thinking about it, I know a "split vertebral scuted animal" who is also a wild caught tortoise who is a male and a producing one at that.

Growth is like split scutes, it doesn't mean a whole lot as far as sexual determinations. :D
 

hunterk997

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So I will be getting a tortoise with a missing scute. So that means there is a higher possibility of it being male?
 

StarSapphire22

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Re: RE: Can scute irregularities predict sex?

hunterk997 said:
So I will be getting a tortoise with a missing scute. So that means there is a higher possibility of it being male?

Female, if I'm understanding correctly. Any scute anomalies have higher chances of being female.
 

Tom

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I would say that in general tortoises with scute anomalies are female, but because of the large number of exceptions that can be cited, the percentage of split scuted females might not be that high. I will say its more than 50/50. My best guess would be 90/10, female to male with scute anomalies. Other might have different observations.

Also, in my experience, males tend to grow faster than females in leopards and sulcatas. BUT there are exceptions to this too. My 3.5 year old sulcatas are an exception. Tuck is smaller and just revealed himself to be a male for sure. Trey is smaller and two weeks younger, but from the same clutch, and she's quite a lot bigger than Tuck.

I'll let you know about russians in a couple of years. I'm charting the growth of 20 babies right now. :)
 

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I have a male Russian with a split scute, he was my 'beautiful girl' until he proved me wrong lol
 

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I will be the kink in the chain……First off scute abnormalities have nothing to do with sex of a tortoise. They may however be used as a tool for a theoretical guess of “ higher temps produce females, thus the extra scutes” Although without elaborating on the subject , as I believe there is one forum member working on a paper/thesis on this subject. From my own experience of breeding Redfoots for a solid 10 years with long term animals within my herds and raising my own hatchlings to adults , this rule of temp sex…does not always produce females nor does higher temps always produce scute abnormities. I have witnessed many of times , same clutch different results , as well as same shelf different clutches all with different results. Using a very “fine tuned incubator” with less then 1 degree of temp changes within the same shelf. Perhaps genetics also plays a role on the final “visual outcome” of the hatchlings. Working with the Hypo’s I can further stress the variance in scute patterns and coloration , but also tell you what hypo mother it came from. .
 

Tom

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You are no kink in this chain. I don't disagree with anything you said.

Would you agree that generally higher temps produce females, and higher temps tend to produce more scute anomalies? Granted we all know there are exceptions, but is there ANY truth to the above in your experience?
 

diamondbp

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I can only speak on my area of expertise which is gulf coast box turtles. After seeing and raising many box turtles over the last 3 decades I can confidently say that split scutes can and do occur on both male and females. It seems it may be more common in females but I can't produce anything to confirm that.

I suspect this may be different depending on the species.
 

N2TORTS

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Mr. Tom I think it holds a higher chance the “ higher temp = more females” and it was designed that way -but that’s a whole nother’ topic. But like mentioned in my own groups from egg to laying eggs of their own, and finally couple years back investing in a very well built cooker with minimal variance in shelf temps - I have seen many different results. And we probably would for the next few hundred years….:rolleyes:
 

BeeBee*BeeLeaves

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So all y'all will just have to walk like an Egyptian tortoise, and be patient!
Whatever they end up being, it's always good anyhow : )
 

EricIvins

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I know quite a few people producing Male Red Eared Slider morphs who produce on average 25% split scute animals. The Batagurs are infamous for producing split scute animals of both sexes. I think all the Male Callagurs I've kept have had some kind of scute deformity...
 

StarSapphire22

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Re: RE: Can scute irregularities predict sex?

BeeBee*BeeLeaves said:
So all y'all will just have to walk like an Egyptian tortoise, and be patient!
Whatever they end up being, it's always good anyhow : )

Of course we'll love them either way....I'm still hoping he's a boy. Small size, can't become gravid, all that. :p
 

bouaboua

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Very educational topic. Wonderful to know.
 
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