Of course there is still a question! All of Aldabramans breeders were imported and they seem to be acceptable to you, but now all of a sudden ONLY U.S. bred and hatched are worth owning? When an importer stands behind their animals, what else do you need? If you think your risk is mitigated by going local bred - great, go for it. But it’s irresponsible and factless to say that others are lesser quantity. You’ve “heard stories”, I don’t know “where these tortoises have been”. “All importers are bad, all local breeders are good”......Get facts and get back to me. I’m not going to keep arguing with you.
When an importer stands behind their animals, what else do you need?
We are talking about CBB offspring from LTCs here. Its not like he imported them last week. Most of Aldabraman's stock has been in this country for decades. And even if they weren't, we aren't talking about his adults, we are talking about buying little ones.
Ben, how old are you? How long have you been keeping tortoises? Were you in the reptile trade back in the 80s and 90s when we were still importing WC everything and when the CB revolution was taking place? I'm just trying to gain some perspective on where you are coming from.
We are talking about CBB offspring from LTCs here. Its not like he imported them last week. Most of Aldabraman's stock has been in this country for decades. And even if they weren't, we aren't talking about his adults, we are talking about buying little ones.
Ben, how old are you? How long have you been keeping tortoises? Were you in the reptile trade back in the 80s and 90s when we were still importing WC everything and when the CB revolution was taking place? I'm just trying to gain some perspective on where you are coming from.
Thank you for sharing where you are coming from.Tom, I think I’ve been pretty clear about where I’m coming from. I don’t believe that just one supplier in the country deserves recommendation. Is he the best - seems like it. Is he the only source, no. Obviously people need to do their homework, but there are good importers, it’s as simple as that. You simply can’t say that it was ok for you to purchase imports back in the day, but not anymore. That is basically what you are saying when you say “wait for (this breeder), trust me on this”. I just took exception with the way that’s worded, especially since to made that comment after I provided two alternative names that I’ve had a good experience with. I know that you want what’s best for people and the animals - so do I. Are Aldabraman’s animals safe - yes, foolproof, no. My experience say’s it’s also safe to purchase from others as well, foolproof - no.
I’m 54 Tom, been raising torts for 15 years, bred African P. P. Leopards (indoors) for 10 years.
etherI think you’re correct in that other countries don’t have the 4” rule. As far as the ones we get here being more expensive because of it, I’m not so sure.
My guess is that the demand outside the US is less than the animals produced and we simply get the leftovers. I say that because if there is no 4” rule elsewhere and enough demand, there is no reason overseas breeders would spend the time to raise them to 4” when they could sell them all fresh out of the egg. Unless, we are paying a premium, which I doubt, or there isn’t enough demand elsewhere.
Another reason i feel we get “leftovers” is because of the abonormailites many of the imported animals have. Split/double/divided scutes/missing toenails, etc.
That being said, there seem to be an equal number of “perfect” specimens available here if one is willing to pony up the extra dough.
That’s interesting, I hadn’t considered that. Seems risky for the seller to keep and care for an animal for 6 plus months that’s already been paid for.I don't know whether or not we pay a premium but I did talk to an importer about getting a 4" tortoise and he said it was really hard to get small ones because of the 4" law. He said he had to buy the tortoise at hachling size and have the seller hold them untel 4" and then import them beacuse otherwise they all sell before reaching 4"
ether
I was told the demand outside the US was high and that they could sell everything outside the US. Who knows. I think we do pay a premium - especially if we are buying 4” animals and others smaller. I would suspect that they want to send some here to keep the market interested. If everyone had to wait two years to get an 4” local bred, many would lose interest.
I was told the demand outside the US was high and that they could sell everything outside the US.
There is no way I’d spend 4 figures on a tortoise without many detailed photographs of it. Which seems to be common practice of the importers I see.
~ The import sources that many reference here simply buy quantities and resell them with a good markup. They are strictly financially driven, this is a business for them and it totally makes sense. I follow the markets very closely and as a good rule the US retailers seem to have a 100% markup per tortoise.
The availability of US captive aldabras is unpredictable at best.
That was my understanding as well, however I didn’t think it would be a 100%.
I believe an individual can import 1 animal as a pet without too much hassle as far as paperwork but it’s not cost effective for overseas sellers to ship one.
Which drives the business of quantity purchases that you mentioned. I can’t blame them for taking advantage of the opportunity.
~ I can say with somewhat certainty that there are four sources that are having current success with fertility in the aldabra species. Two are very private and rarely sell any babies to the general public. Most know of Bob Clark, he has been successful in a partnership with a zoo. I think when things may get confusing at times is when we cross a hobby with a business. Our program is based on passion, and the hatchlings are a byproduct. Our success levels are fantastic, with that some kind of business model needs to be involved. What i always tell folks that call is that if you are wanting a hatchling and we have no surplus is to go in person and pick one out. I always tell them what to look for and what to avoid if possible. I can also say that i have tons of negative e-mails regarding folks purchasing from other sources. I am not willing to share them, however what Tom as indicated is true for any breeder that is not financially driven and has sincere passion and love for what they do.