Breeder's record/statement for CITES permit denied

[ulkal]

Hi everyone,

hope you and your torts are enjoying a nice spring Sunday

As some of you might know, I am the owner of two leopard tortoise babies I bought last October.
Now I got a job offer I would like to take in my home country of Germany and therefore, of course, would like to take my tortoises with me. Germany allows the import of Leopard tortoises with a CITES permit of the country of origin and an import permit.

I contacted the breeder last week if they could issue me a breeder's statement that my tortoises were born at their facility for my application.They called me yesterday and told me they do not want to do that because they are only hobby breeders and not licensed and don't want any trouble. I see no decent way of "making them". When I googled tortoise laws before I got them I never had the impression that tortoise keeping and breeding in California required any permits/licenses with the exception of Desert tortoises. If that's wrong I am certainly to blame for poor research.

My question is now if anyone has any experience with those permits and
if there is another possibility for me to obtain one. This is the application form- point 8 maybe offers a way out??

http://www.fws.gov/international/pd...-import-export-re-export-of-personal-pets.pdf

I still have a full email conversation, the address, a credit card bill that proves I withdrew the money from an ATM near the breeder and their new ebay classified ad.

When I tried to call the US Fish and Wildlife Service for information last week I got stuck in endless preprogrammed messages that ended with referring me to their website for information. It does not seem possible to get an officer on the phone.

I would be grateful for any advice. As much as I do not want to bring trouble to the people I got them from I also do not want to give those
two up.

Nice day to everyone

 

[Cowboy_Ken]

Though I can offer no advice here, I share your aggravation. I can't fathom what the breeders problem is unless they have a tax concern in regard to the money they bring in selling tortoises. My feeling is, unless they are making a very good amount they should have zero issues and should certainly help you in any way they can.

 

[EricIvins]

Unless the "Breeder" has declaration paperwork for their animals, or a copy that can be traced back to the declared founders, you won't get CBB CITES to begin with. Permits are unattainable for 98% of Tortoises produced in captivity, plain and simple.......

Example - I have Indian Stars with declaration paperwork proving their legal origin. I can always apply for CITES Export Permits for them, or CBB CITES Export Permits for their offspring. Without this, my Permit application will be denied.

If you don't know the process, you can talk to a customs broker and have them apply for you. You may have a shot if that happens, but I would put those odds at 99:1 NOT in your favor. Its just how thing are.......

 

[ulkal]

Thank you for your answers. My heart just dropped.

But I did not do anything illegal, right? Practically anyone can breed leopard tortoises and sell them?
I looked again and really did not find any law concerning registration and licensing. So how can they not regulate it and then ask for all this documentation?And don't even mention that on their infopage?
Why do they have this option in point 8 at all.
So confused and I do not even know who to call after their number only ended with some computer referring me to some homepage I have already searched. Someone say again that the Internet made it easier to get reliable information...

Any opinions/advice on whether/how I should apply- I would feel bad if the breeder would get in trouble for nothing.
Thank you all.

 

[Tom]

Try for the number 8 deal. Worse case, they so no. Best case, you are good to go.

 

[ulkal]

Geez, now I know what the deal is:
They have desert tortoises that hatched from eggs of
their permitted adults. Whether they incubated, I dunno, but
I assume not. They should have told me that having CDT babies is not allowed. They told me its illegal to sell them and you need a permit for keeping, but not, that it is not cool to have hatchlings-I just learned that now. Of course I do not want anyone getting trouble or lose their pets. But obviously they did not care that I would have to give away mine.

A part of me just wants to hand in the permit- application and not care what happens to the breeder. The "hobby breeder" thing does not count, the longer I think about it. Those leopard eggs are artificially incubated, its not their first and only ad selling leopards. And if they do not want trouble because something is not kosher, then going commercial in whatever way is not the best thing.
How to handle this matter best?

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

What would be the proceedure if you've adopted the tortoise(s) from an individual, who you've since lost contact with, or they're deceased, and at a later date you needed the paperwork (CITES permit, etc.)?

Surely this situation has arisen in the past.

 

[ulkal]

Good point! I don't know, but I am going to find out because I will go for point 8. As far as I remember, at least one parent of them is an import-maybe there are records at the US Fish and Wildlife service. But better not make any assumptions, because I am not sure 100%.

I also know what the problem is,now: CDT, who are permitted, but also layed eggs- they told me back then about the CDT babies, that you are not allowed to sell them and need to have a permit. But when I googled yesterday, I saw that you are not allowed to incubate eggs(which does not have to be the case here) and report when they hatch nervertheless?

I think I will "warn" the breeder what I intend to do, so they can be prepared if someone asks. It might sound childish, but the whole CDT thing is "not my fault" and also "not my problem". The more I think about it the less I accept any "I am a hobby breeder" excuse. The leopard eggs were artificially incubated, the hatchlings are sold for the price any "professional breeder" or pet store charges, and they keep on putting up ads to sell tortoises.

I will post anything that might be helpful for someone who faces the same problem in the future.