Box Turtle Growths on Tongue?

Morty23

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Hello Everyone. Sorry in advance for what may turn out to be a longer post than I'm planning but I'm looking for advice/opinions.
I rescued a box turtle about 4 years ago. He had been through about 5 families previously so could be somewhere 12-20 years old and was fed a diet of iceberg lettuce with occasional kale and sometimes those fruity pebbles looking tortoise food. Needless to say he's really deformed. His carapace never really grew so it looks like his back has a tiny top hat shell. I'd hoped to give him to a local sanctuary but it wasn't possible because he can't pull his head or legs into his shell.

He's been doing really well and I've done my best to learn quickly how to care for him. Unfortunately due to the wildfire smoke, I had to pull him out of his gladiator arena and put him back inside. All was going fine until about a month or so ago, he went off his food. I clean his beak frequently because it's deformed and tends to want to collect food. When I opened his mouth, I noticed strange yellow growths on his tongue. Mouth rot? Herpes? I cranked up the heat and scheduled an appointment with a local exotic vet that a lot of tort owners reviewed well on Yelp (which means nothing really but it's all I had to go by).

He couldn't figure out what the growths were (viral/bacterial/fungal?) so sent him home with oral Baytril I was to give once a day for 3 weeks. Without asking me, he trimmed Morty's beak. I didn't have a chance to look at it as they handed him back to me in the parking lot. These Covid restrictions for vet hospitals are insane. His beak bled pretty badly that night and was trimmed short enough he still can't close his mouth 4 weeks later. Super helpful.

I waited 5 days and he still wasn't eating and had a butchered beak so I scheduled a second opinion with my regular exotic vet. She had me stop the Baytril after a week and wasn't happy about the trim but couldn't really find anything else wrong with him other than the growths on his tongue. She thought maybe they are papillomas and was going to reach out to some breeders to see if they had seen anything similar. I can't find much info for those online other than in sea turtles and the growths look totally different. He's bright and alert and active and sassy and doing all of his normal things. Just won't eat and has these weird yellow tongue growths. They aren't red and don't seem to be painful when you touch them.
For now I am soaking him and syringe feeding him and he's super cool about it. He's in a hospital tank with a ceramic heater, basking bulb, and undertank heater. Heat range is 75-90 from cool side to basking side.


Resized_20201107_115958_3547.jpg
I'll post a pic of his tongue. Curious if any of you have seen anything like it? The vet said she can sedate him and try to biopsy but he's so tiny and not eating on his own...I hate to put him under if I can help it. It's so hard because he's acting normally. Just not eating on his own. Today I put him outside in the sun and he cruised around with a rock in his mouth fo a good ten minutes...lol. Love this little dude.
 

mark1

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i'd treat him as though it was mouth rot ........ if it doesn't improve it's probably viral , ranavirus or herpes would be good guesses , i think ......
 

Morty23

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i'd treat him as though it was mouth rot ........ if it doesn't improve it's probably viral , ranavirus or herpes would be good guesses , i think ......

Thanks Mark. Do you think I should go the Baytril route again? The 2nd vet said the initial prescription was the injectable formula and double what it should be for his size so I'd probably need to get something compounded. It's just the 3 growths that really haven't changed at all. Thankfully neither vet could see anything down his throat or in his mouth cavity. I was initially treating them topically with dilute chlorhexidine.

Do viruses just need to run their course with supportive care? The vets don't seem too concerned about him since he's acting normally. Just seems strange he won't eat. Thankfully syringe feeding is a lot easier since he can't pull his head into his shell.
 

mark1

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i've never used an anti-viral on any animal ..... i believe acyclivor is used for herpes ...... ranavirus i'm not sure ........ ranavirus running it's course is not good .......

ranavirus
 

zovick

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Hello Everyone. Sorry in advance for what may turn out to be a longer post than I'm planning but I'm looking for advice/opinions.
I rescued a box turtle about 4 years ago. He had been through about 5 families previously so could be somewhere 12-20 years old and was fed a diet of iceberg lettuce with occasional kale and sometimes those fruity pebbles looking tortoise food. Needless to say he's really deformed. His carapace never really grew so it looks like his back has a tiny top hat shell. I'd hoped to give him to a local sanctuary but it wasn't possible because he can't pull his head or legs into his shell.

He's been doing really well and I've done my best to learn quickly how to care for him. Unfortunately due to the wildfire smoke, I had to pull him out of his gladiator arena and put him back inside. All was going fine until about a month or so ago, he went off his food. I clean his beak frequently because it's deformed and tends to want to collect food. When I opened his mouth, I noticed strange yellow growths on his tongue. Mouth rot? Herpes? I cranked up the heat and scheduled an appointment with a local exotic vet that a lot of tort owners reviewed well on Yelp (which means nothing really but it's all I had to go by).

He couldn't figure out what the growths were (viral/bacterial/fungal?) so sent him home with oral Baytril I was to give once a day for 3 weeks. Without asking me, he trimmed Morty's beak. I didn't have a chance to look at it as they handed him back to me in the parking lot. These Covid restrictions for vet hospitals are insane. His beak bled pretty badly that night and was trimmed short enough he still can't close his mouth 4 weeks later. Super helpful.

I waited 5 days and he still wasn't eating and had a butchered beak so I scheduled a second opinion with my regular exotic vet. She had me stop the Baytril after a week and wasn't happy about the trim but couldn't really find anything else wrong with him other than the growths on his tongue. She thought maybe they are papillomas and was going to reach out to some breeders to see if they had seen anything similar. I can't find much info for those online other than in sea turtles and the growths look totally different. He's bright and alert and active and sassy and doing all of his normal things. Just won't eat and has these weird yellow tongue growths. They aren't red and don't seem to be painful when you touch them.
For now I am soaking him and syringe feeding him and he's super cool about it. He's in a hospital tank with a ceramic heater, basking bulb, and undertank heater. Heat range is 75-90 from cool side to basking side.

I'll post a pic of his tongue. Curious if any of you have seen anything like it? The vet said she can sedate him and try to biopsy but he's so tiny and not eating on his own...I hate to put him under if I can help it. It's so hard because he's acting normally. Just not eating on his own. Today I put him outside in the sun and he cruised around with a rock in his mouth fo a good ten minutes...lol. Love this little dude.
If you look carefully can you see any of the yellow bumps on his legs, in the leg sockets, or on his neck? The lesions on your turtle's tongue look very similar to the yellow bumps on some of the sulcatas' skin areas. Hopefully it is not what the sulcatas have, but there is a similarity.

These ones on your turtle appear to be fairly well pedunculated. Maybe your vet could do an excisional biopsy and take them off completely rather than trying to just get a piece of one for a histology slide. I would ask about that as it would eliminate the need to treat them with various agents for a longer period of time and hope they got better.
 

Morty23

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If you look carefully can you see any of the yellow bumps on his legs, in the leg sockets, or on his neck? The lesions on your turtle's tongue look very similar to the yellow bumps on some of the sulcatas' skin areas. Hopefully it is not what the sulcatas have, but there is a similarity.

These ones on your turtle appear to be fairly well pedunculated. Maybe your vet could do an excisional biopsy and take them off completely rather than trying to just get a piece of one for a histology slide. I would ask about that as it would eliminate the need to treat them with various agents for a longer period of time and hope they got better.
I just saw that thread and was looking for pics! Those poor things. Morty doesn't have any other bumps, lesions, etc. Because his carapace is so so small, it's easy to get a good look at all his external nooks and crannies. The growths on his tongue are the only ones I've been able to spot and they haven't changed for better or worse in about 6 weeks.

The vet said she might pursue excisional biopsy if this continues. She hesitates to do it on him because of his physical abnormalities. She did his initial exam when I first got him and never wanted me to let him hibernate. He's just a wonky little fella.

Do these torts do well with that kind of procedure? I'm used to birds and rodents and they're so fragile when it comes to anesthetic. I guess I'm just worried about putting him through that.
 

Morty23

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Here's a pic of the handsome fella with his poor mangled beak and wee turtle shell top hat. I'm pretty fond of him and I really appreciate all of your expertise and advice. Forgive the various animal hairs. They're everywhere... IMG_5186.JPG
 

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*Editing because I'm thinking maybe you mean contagion*. He is my first and only reptile. I'm a vet tech for small animals and have a huge menagerie of fur folk. This is all very different for me :/
That's why I was asking. Whatever it is, assume it is contagious unless conclusively determined otherwise. Keep quarantined and use appropriate biosecurity measures. (You have to be a vet tech at home as well as at work.)
 

zovick

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I just saw that thread and was looking for pics! Those poor things. Morty doesn't have any other bumps, lesions, etc. Because his carapace is so so small, it's easy to get a good look at all his external nooks and crannies. The growths on his tongue are the only ones I've been able to spot and they haven't changed for better or worse in about 6 weeks.

The vet said she might pursue excisional biopsy if this continues. She hesitates to do it on him because of his physical abnormalities. She did his initial exam when I first got him and never wanted me to let him hibernate. He's just a wonky little fella.

Do these torts do well with that kind of procedure? I'm used to birds and rodents and they're so fragile when it comes to anesthetic. I guess I'm just worried about putting him through that.
Turtles/tortoises respond fairly well to anesthesia these days if it is administered by a vet familiar with reptile anesthesia. Telazol could possibly be used instead of a longer acting general anesthesia (renders them immobile). It wears off fairly quickly in my experience. You would need to discuss this possibility vs. other agents with the vet who is doing the job, obviously.
 

Toddrickfl1

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Here's a pic of the handsome fella with his poor mangled beak and wee turtle shell top hat. I'm pretty fond of him and I really appreciate all of your expertise and advice. Forgive the various animal hairs. They're everywhere... View attachment 310710
Is the tortoise swollen too? Doesn't look right, looks really swollen too me.
 
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mark1

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for what it's worth , i actually agree with your vet , don't do anything you don't need to do until it becomes necessary ............ if you anesthetize this turtle , get a biopsy send it to a lab capable of identifying it ,and find out it's one of the many viruses that affect turtles , what will you do ? nothing more than you would do if you didn't know ? you'll put him antibiotics (one they'll guess at) , keep him at optimal temps , force feed him , hydrate him , and hope for the best .....force feeding should be a last resort , the stress on the turtle usually outweighs the benefit , if you got him under a feeding tube would be a better way to go , as long as your getting invasive , to me , last resort .... the chances of him surviving one of those viruses it will be slim to none , judging from what he appears to have survived so far , i'd guess none ......... i commend you for giving this guy a chance , it's awesome .....

if it's bacterial , you'll treat it as such ........ if it's the bacterial infection that's been discussed recently , the odds your vet will not use ceftazidime is also slim to none , it will respond anything most any bacteria common to these guys will ......... unless they culture it and test for sensitivity ???? i've raised dogs my whole life , i've yet to go to that extent with one of them ??? i seen an article about my dogs vet one time , he had like 200,000 clients , their are 21 vets at his clinic , you'll see motor homes and cars in the parking lot from 3-4 states at any given time , i've known him for almost 30yrs , he is a brilliant guesser ........... these aren't dogs , stress makes whatever they got worse , they get stressed easily ..... i've yet to experience a severely sick reptile survive due to an extremely invasive procedure , i've seen very few exceptions to my own experience , it's where the vets will kill them ridiculousness comes from ........... it appears to me i'm more pro vet than the vast majority on this board , but i do believe less is more when it comes to intervention ........ i have had severely sick turtles recover with minimal assistance , antibiotics , warmth , and no stress ...... the sensitivity test that my turtles vet uses is giving them an antibiotic which most probably will work , if they don't improve try something different .....

don't know if turtles and tortoises can handle copper sulfate , but alligator farmers dip their alligators in copper sulfate when they get these yellow spot bacterial infections .......
 

Morty23

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Is the tortoise swollen too? Doesn't look right, looks really swollen too me.
I think it's more an optical illusion and probably should've posted a better pic. He was in his hideout and all pulled in so those rolls would usually be hidden beneath the carapace (I think?) Here's a better one with him out of his invisible shell. He's always more or less looked like this so hopefully that doesn't mean swollen. This is a learning curve and it's harder for me to gauge what's normal in comparison with his deformities
IMG_5295.JPG
 

Morty23

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for what it's worth , i actually agree with your vet , don't do anything you don't need to do until it becomes necessary ............ if you anesthetize this turtle , get a biopsy send it to a lab capable of identifying it ,and find out it's one of the many viruses that affect turtles , what will you do ? nothing more than you would do if you didn't know ? you'll put him antibiotics (one they'll guess at) , keep him at optimal temps , force feed him , hydrate him , and hope for the best .....force feeding should be a last resort , the stress on the turtle usually outweighs the benefit , if you got him under a feeding tube would be a better way to go , as long as your getting invasive , to me , last resort .... the chances of him surviving one of those viruses it will be slim to none , judging from what he appears to have survived so far , i'd guess none ......... i commend you for giving this guy a chance , it's awesome .....

if it's bacterial , you'll treat it as such ........ if it's the bacterial infection that's been discussed recently , the odds your vet will not use ceftazidime is also slim to none , it will respond anything most any bacteria common to these guys will ......... unless they culture it and test for sensitivity ???? i've raised dogs my whole life , i've yet to go to that extent with one of them ??? i seen an article about my dogs vet one time , he had like 200,000 clients , their are 21 vets at his clinic , you'll see motor homes and cars in the parking lot from 3-4 states at any given time , i've known him for almost 30yrs , he is a brilliant guesser ........... these aren't dogs , stress makes whatever they got worse , they get stressed easily ..... i've yet to experience a severely sick reptile survive due to an extremely invasive procedure , i've seen very few exceptions to my own experience , it's where the vets will kill them ridiculousness comes from ........... it appears to me i'm more pro vet than the vast majority on this board , but i do believe less is more when it comes to intervention ........ i have had severely sick turtles recover with minimal assistance , antibiotics , warmth , and no stress ...... the sensitivity test that my turtles vet uses is giving them an antibiotic which most probably will work , if they don't improve try something different .....

don't know if turtles and tortoises can handle copper sulfate , but alligator farmers dip their alligators in copper sulfate when they get these yellow spot bacterial infections .......
Thanks Mark. All of that is very helpful. I agree with you that he wouldn't survive one of those viruses I'm reading about on here and maybe I should try a different antibiotic. Hoping that this is a flare up of something that he's already gotten antibodies for and that maybe by trying to go into hibernation, his immune system fell behind. He was a little colder than he should have been when I first brought him in during the fires. I have a tendency to want to throw the vet books and surgical tables at these critters just because I like to know what's happening and that I did all I could, but that's not always what is best for them. I appreciate you reminding me of that.

Boy did he get stressed over that first vet visit. Thankfully the second one came to the house and had a better way about her but still I'm pretty sure he's about done with all of the poking and prodding. Neither of the vets seem too worried about him because he's still feisty and looks ok and neither was very keen on putting him under anesthetic/sedation. I should probably pay attention to that.

For now I'll try to support him as best I can. He's really a neat little guy and hopefully we can get him through whatever this is he's working on.
 

mark1

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i would think not eating is because his mouth hurts .... i would treat his mouth as though it were bacterial , topical antiseptic and systemic antibiotics ......... even if it's viral , most viral infections are accompanied by bacterial infections ..... i believe the thought is one opens the door to the other ........ very tough guy to have survived to this point , i sure hope he gets through this ...... if he does it seems he found himself a good home ...... his eyes look great , i'd try to solve this before he gets ill ........ best of luck ......
 

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