Blue Eastern Male

[Tccarolina]

Blue color in box turtles fascinates me. Especially in the eastern subspecies, which are the subspecies I keep. It is very uncommon in eastern box turtles, but among all the subspecies, they have the genetic variability to take a trait farther and more extensively than the other subspecies. I want to know what causes it. Why is it only present, so far, in males? Does it really change shade dependent on temperature and mood? Is it a recessive gene, or can it be passed through an expressing father?

I hope to find out in the next few years, as I breed him to some select females.

Here is my male. He came out briefly from hibernation the other day, then went back down. I got him last fall, but he went straight into hibernation. He is very thin, but is otherwise healthy.

He has blue on his throat, cheeks, a patch on each front leg, and perhaps some in the front armpit regions. There is an orange spot on the blue throat. It seems to be a pied trait, where it is expressed as patches. Is anyone a geneticist who can tell me what is going on here?

 

[yagyujubei]

A particularly nice male, Steve. He has an exceptional shell pattern as well.

 

[turtlemann2]

One Word. WOW

this guy should be on a stamp, perhaps a new state reptile model. im no geneticist but all i can say is WOW...

are you breeding him with selected females of your own stock? or are you breeding outside of your bale, to other blued or blue decendant females?

 

[Tccarolina]

One Word. WOW

this guy should be on a stamp, perhaps a new state reptile model. im no geneticist but all i can say is WOW...

are you breeding him with selected females of your own stock? or are you breeding outside of your bale, to other blued or blue decendant females?

Thanks!
He is being penned with females from my own stock. It will take time, assuming he is fertile, to replace the stored sperm from prior matings. From what I understand, the second clutch has a stronger chance of having recent sperm used than the first clutch of the season. Sperm can last for years in most turtles, and certainly in box turtles. Replacing it is probably the best bet, rather than waiting for it to die.
All four of the females he is penned with are from an area that the blue genetics exist, so it is possible one or more might carry the trait if it is recessive.

My plan is to incubate for males only the first couple of years, to see if it shows up in any offspring. Then, I'll incubate for females, and possibly raise some of those females. By then, I might have another male with blue to breed them to. I don't want to line-breed them back to this male, but if I can't locate another male, I'd rather risk the dangers of line-breeding than see this color form disappear from herpiculture. There is someone else who is doing the same thing with a different male, so maybe I'll be able to obtain a blue male from that person's blue male's offspring.

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A particularly nice male, Steve. He has an exceptional shell pattern as well.

Yes, I didn't expect the great shell along with the blue traits! His pattern has very fine lines, which isn't super common either. I don't have any other turtles with a pattern of fine thin lines like that.
Now I just need to get him feeding well, once he re-emerges from hibernation.

 

[yagyujubei]

I would save all of the female offspring you get and breed them back to him. I think also, that it might be wise to incubate some eggs as well for females.If you get no blue males, and don't have females, you'll be delayed several years.Remember, line breeding isn't inbreeding. Have you talked to Sam Hacker about what results he's gotten from his male?

 

[turtlemann2]

its too bad turtles take so long to mature unlike chickens and fish. this is going to be a decade long breeding project

 

[Tccarolina]

I would save all of the female offspring you get and breed them back to him. I think also, that it might be wise to incubate some eggs as well for females.If you get no blue males, and don't have females, you'll be delayed several years.Remember, line breeding isn't inbreeding. Have you talked to Sam Hacker about what results he's gotten from his male?

Yeah, that's probably wise. I guess his breeding activity this spring will play a role. If he doesn't attempt to breed, I'll not be worried.

 

[jojodesca]

I really think he is pretty...wow never heard of the blue before..that's cool

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

Very nice!

 

[Tccarolina]

its too bad turtles take so long to mature unlike chickens and fish. this is going to be a decade long breeding project

Yes, it probably will be, unless I start getting blue males right away.

That brings up another problem. How old will the offspring be before they state expressing the blue trait? Will I have to hold on to them for years to be sure, or will they start off with some blue right out of the egg?

 

[Saloli]

I would save all of the female offspring you get and breed them back to him. I think also, that it might be wise to incubate some eggs as well for females.If you get no blue males, and don't have females, you'll be delayed several years.Remember, line breeding isn't inbreeding. Have you talked to Sam Hacker about what results he's gotten from his male?

I just thought I would point this out "line breeding isn't inbreeding" it is inbreeding line breeding means to breed within a line (of descent ex.father bred to daughter) which is how you would fix a trait like when people make breeds.

 

[l0velesly]

What fascinates me the most are their bloody red eyes

 

[turtlemann2]

well i cant wait to see how it goes, who knows maybe as hatchling they will have just a spec of blue