"BlackCherry" updates...

[Redfoot NERD]

Eggs from my alpha Brazilian from Nov. and Dec. 2010 have created 3 unusual color morphs. All 3 have incubated close to 6 months each resulting in undeveloped plastrons to HUGE yolk sacs! The first one after a LONG time in the 'nursery' [ the incubator where they finish absorbing their yolk-sacs ] finally didn't make it. And thanks to onarock, etc. I have managed to 'save' the last 2! Thanks Paul.

The 2nd baby looked like this on 5/25/11 -

To "slow-forward" to today we have this little guy.. still a little shy and I've not seen him eat yet so we'll just have to be patient even longer!!!

Movin' away -

How 'bout them legs? -

And belly all healed up -

AND the 3rd one after what seemed forever earlier today -

His 'healing' is coming along great.. still in the nursery -

See how tiny? -

Now we'll see what happens when she lays again this summer. About a dozen eggs from Aug. thru Oct. 2010 didn't hatch and earlier 2010 had little pale red.. as opposed to the pale "vanilla"? of these. Kristina has one of the "red" ones.. very little red!

Hope you liked...

NERD

 

[Eweezyfosheezy]

These guys are my favorite of all cherrys!!! Thanks for the pics!!!

 

[jackrat]

Very beautiful,Terry! Those are super nice.

 

[onarock]

Glad I could help Terry. Those are some beautiful tortoises you got there. Just throwing this out for thought,but I wonder what the hatchlings of those tortoises will look like.
Terry, dont think I have ever seen a hatchling with a scar that large make it. Well done!

 

[DixieParadise]

I love my Cherries...but these are growing on me. Love them. Thanks for the pictures.

 

[Kristina]

Just throwing this out for thought,but I wonder what the hatchlings of those tortoises will look like.

You and me both! That is exactly why I have one and would like to talk Terry out of a couple of more as they hatch

They are looking really good Terry

 

[froghaven5]

Beautiful! I just love their coloring!

 

[Tortoise]

Wow Terry they are beautiful, I have never seen colours like that before -really unique.
Congratulations on your babies
Louise

 

[SnakeyeZ]

Very cute! It's so weird seeing their bellies like that. I know it's normal and most people who breed tortoises are used to it but it makes me kinda squeemish, lol.

 

[cdmay]

The more of these 'black cherries' that I see from others (and from my own incubators), the more I am convinced that they are simply neonates that happen to be runts. And that in addition to being undersized, they also have very little if any color.
From what I understand virtually all of NERD's 'black' cherries have been undersized and at least some of them have emerged from the egg with oversized yolk sacs.
This is exactly what I have found to be the case in my own experience. Here are some examples...

So now the question comes up, are they dark (or faded) because they are runts? Does the lack of color go hand in hand with being
so small? What causes them to be runted in the first place---a lack of a good diet to the female they came from? An incompatible mating? I still am not really sure but I tend to think that the diet of the female has something to do with it. The reason I conclude this is because the females I have that have produced the little dark runts recently have all produced large and stunningly colorful hatchlings in the past. But for some reason, in the past couple of years these same females have produced a number of hatchlings that have all been either very dark or very faded and colorless. And all of these odd neonates---ALL of them---have been undersized, many with overly large yolk sacs.

 

[onarock]

cdmay, thanks for that. Very interesting

 

[DixieParadise]

CD, thanks for the info on the Black Cherries. Very interesting speculation.

 

[Geochelone_Carbonaria]

Those are some very unique and beautiful hatchlings!

 

[allegraf]

Diet may have something to do with it, your girls have produced colorful stunning hatchlings over the years. It is only recently you are getting the runty colorless ones. What are you feeding different? I know you are feeding sweet potato, how about more papaya? It could also be the males you had with your girls. Hopefully the new blood you have added to the herd will make a difference with next years hatchlings. The runty colorless ones are charming as well, it is interesting how their yolk sacs are larger than normal. Definitely larger than the regular cherryhead hatchlings' yolk sac.

Allegra

 

[cdmay]

Diet may have something to do with it, your girls have produced colorful stunning hatchlings over the years. It is only recently you are getting the runty colorless ones. What are you feeding different? I know you are feeding sweet potato, how about more papaya? It could also be the males you had with your girls. Hopefully the new blood you have added to the herd will make a difference with next years hatchlings. The runty colorless ones are charming as well, it is interesting how their yolk sacs are larger than normal. Definitely larger than the regular cherryhead hatchlings' yolk sac.

Allegra

Not sure exactly what the cause is-- the diet I have fed my animals is the same. Plus, sweet potatoes are high in beta carotine so if anything, they should contribute to brightly colored neonates.
Likewise, the males are the same too. My guess is that it might simply be that the females need a rest from breeding. Likely, even though they are producing lots of fertile eggs, they could use a year or two off.

 

[Jacqui]

My guess is that it might simply be that the females need a rest from breeding. Likely, even though they are producing lots of fertile eggs, they could use a year or two off.

That would make sense, because in the wild they would not always be finding males to reproduce with. Also we let other animals rest between creating young, even the soil is rested and rotated.

Very interesting observation on these dark youngins'

 

[kbaker]

Can you tell us about their protein intake? Did the source or amount change?

"...in the wild they would not always be finding males to reproduce with."
Anything to back this idea up? We are talking Redfoots, right?? not Galapagos Tortoises?

 

[cdmay]

Can you tell us about their protein intake? Did the source or amount change?

"...in the wild they would not always be finding males to reproduce with."
Anything to back this idea up? We are talking Redfoots, right?? not Galapagos Tortoises?

Jacqui brings up a good point but it is hard to prove absolutely. I would assume that a wild female redfoot tortoise (of any type) probably doesn't mate and then produce eggs every year during her adult life. Then again I guess it is possible that some do....who knows?
But one thing I am fairly certain of is that wild females are not being bred at level they are in captivity where males are always around them. I also doubt very much that wild females produce as many eggs or lay as many clutches as our captive females do. So I think her point about allowing them to go 'fallow' as one would a planted field or garden makes a lot of sense. It certainly wouldn't hurt to give a female a break-- which is something most breeders probably never do.
Regarding Kbaker's question about protein, my females do take in a lot each year and this no doubt is part of the reason two of them produced 6 clutches each last season. Moskovits and Bjorndal demonstrated that egg production in carbonaria and denticulata was directly related to the lipid (and I think protein--if I remember correctly) intake of the female tortoise. The intake of lipids helped determine the size and number of eggs a given female could produce.

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Who's thread is this?... not mine apparently!

Terry

 

[Jacqui]

"...in the wild they would not always be finding males to reproduce with."
Anything to back this idea up? We are talking Redfoots, right?? not Galapagos Tortoises?

Of course not, I don't think there is much we can completely varify as fact in the wild. Even then it would vary greatly from one mile section to the next even. It was based more on what Carl said in the above post, an opinion based upon the comparison between a captive situation compared to the wild.

We can see that when in a small enclosure, the chances of the male and female coming across each other is a constant and frequent occurrence. The females don't always appreciate this and try to get away rather then just sit there and allow the male to breed her. I think all of us have saw this for ourselves. In captivity they just can't escape the immediate area of the male. Now in the wild, they don't have those walls keeping them in, so they can have a better chance to escape and get out of line of sight for a while at least. How well they can escape is going to be widely variable depending mostly on population density in any given area. It's one of those reasons nature made the female able to retain viable sperm.

You would also have greater stress on the female, not just from the number of clutches and eggs laid, but also from the constant influence upon her by having to live in close confined quarters with other tortoises and especially males eager to breed.

Now let's not forget the male's roll in breeding. These hatchlings may also have obtained their "weakness" for lack of a better word from their father's donation. He too, must be feeling the wear and tear of constantly trying to keep up with breeding not only one female but usually two or more. The quality of his sperm will no doubt also be lowered by this.

Nerd, this is still your thread. We are just doing more the our often normal thing of just fawning over pretty pictures of pretty hatchlings. We are talking about possible whys for the dark Cherryheads you and others are having, which are also seeming to be smaller, weaker, and hatchling with larger sacks.