"beating a dead horse" so to speak

Status
Not open for further replies.

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,061
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
Annieski said:
What if all she gets are males---there in lies the problem. Just my thinking.

No problem, just get it all to me. Male, female, sulcata, Russian, Greek, I don't care. I'll take it all. Problem solved, the world is saved. Real difficult.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
53,405
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Annieski said:
What if all she gets are males---there in lies the problem. Just my thinking.

I think its been established there are lots of homes for males too. That's why they still sell them for hundreds of dollars. Tyler made no such distinction. I just don't want to build another enclosure and another heated shelter right now. I've got some other things to build first. Females can just be put right in to my existing enclosures, after quarantine of course.
 

Jacqui

Wanna be raiser of Lemon Drop tortoises
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 28, 2007
Messages
39,350
Location (City and/or State)
A Land Far Away...
You guys amaze me, the debate in this thread is on sulcatas, not 5 gal buckets vs guns! Shelly, Tyler, and Tom, I am deleting your posts. Let's stay with the sulcata issue, ok?

Tom said:
So why all the hysteria and negativity about the sulcatas? Why not RES or Russians or Box turtles?
Actually I see often this same behavior on other forums over the RES. I think in here it's missing, because this is mostly just a tortoise forum. Where the sulcata's size is usually held the most against it, with RES it's more the damage down by releasing them into the wild where they take over areas from native turtles.
 

Neal

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Apr 15, 2010
Messages
4,927
Location (City and/or State)
Arizona
After relaying my experience last week at the "you know where" (tired of saying the r word) and discussing it on the forum I thought about it and I really don't have a problem with people breeding sulcatas, or any other type of animal for that matter. However I do beleive there is a problem involving sulcatas, at least here in Arizona, and I think the blame lies with the buyer.

The single fact to back up my opinion about the "sulcata problem" is there is a facility here that takes these unwanted animals and gives them a home or flips them for profit. Not just a few, but 10's and 100's of these adult animals. I've seen posts where people say they've never actually seen facilities like this one that are swimming in sulcatas, but here in AZ there is at least one facility like this which means at one point in these tortoises life they did not have a home.

So, I think that people who have issue with sulcata breeders because they see a large amount in a rescue facility should consider the responsibility of the buyers and take issue with them not researching this type of tortoise, and for not considering other rescue options. There are much better places out there for these tortoises besides these so called rescues, such as with Tyler or Tom. Maybe there should be a class people should take before they buy sulcatas. Sulcata 101?

In case anyone was interested, I don't own a sulcata, but would like to get a big male some day when and if I get more room.
Neal
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
" I kicked my Ford Pinto once.." ....would that be considered " Beating a Dead horse" ? :p
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,752
Location (City and/or State)
CA
I do not condone horse beating dead or otherwise. And for the person getting all the russians and boxies if you are in california let me know I always have room for another russian or boxie or two.
 

moswen

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
903
kimber, i don't think anyone on here will argue with size differences that a sulcata vs. a russian takes, but i do think you brought up something interesting that actually furthers my point of view:

kimber_lee_314 said:
Just one more thing to think about ... people give me Russians all the time. I can keep a lot of them in the side yard without a problem. I'm also given a ton of box turtles. Again, I can keep a bunch in large planters in my yard. But my yard (grass area) can only hold one sulcata.

so there you just said, that you are given russians and boxies all the time. therefore there are russians and boxies out there who are passed from home to home, and given up, just like sulcatas. so, sort of you are a foster mom for lots of unwanted russians and boxies until you find them new homes...?

this is the exact same thing that i'm talking about with the double standard. with regards to those people who do not like other people breeding sulcatas because they're given up, (and given to "fosters" like kimber, or to a rescue is still the basic principal of being "given up,") to someone else to take care of, the exact same thing is happening to more species than just sulcatas. kimber just said so herself. it's just "easier" to find the smaller ones new homes, which i totally understand and couldn't logically argue that statement if i wanted to. so, everyone out there breeding russians and boxies better stop if you're of the same mindset that sulcats shouldn't be bred for the exact same reason that kimber is dealing with...!

just my point of view anyways, if anyone on here is going to jump on someone for breeding sulcatas, in my opinion, you should not be breeding any tortoises either because they do, in fact, get given up on a realatively large scale, if you could say "all the time" and "a ton" is a large scale... which i believe you can.

oh dmmj, i love reading your posts, you're like the comic relief in every movie!!
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
53,405
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
N2TORTS said:
" I kicked my Ford Pinto once.." ....would that be considered " Beating a Dead horse" ? :p

That is your best one yet!:D, I think the LOL thing is silly, but I was actually laughing out loud at this.

Neal and Rebekah, I think you both make darn good sense and illustrate your points very well.
 

N2TORTS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
8,803
Tom said:
N2TORTS said:
" I kicked my Ford Pinto once.." ....would that be considered " Beating a Dead horse" ? :p

That is your best one yet!:D, I think the LOL thing is silly, but I was actually laughing out loud at this.

Neal and Rebekah, I think you both make darn good sense and illustrate your points very well.



Nice to see ya Smile and Laugh a little! ;)
 

kimber_lee_314

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
2,629
Location (City and/or State)
So Cal
moswen said:
kimber, i don't think anyone on here will argue with size differences that a sulcata vs. a russian takes, but i do think you brought up something interesting that actually furthers my point of view:

kimber_lee_314 said:
Just one more thing to think about ... people give me Russians all the time. I can keep a lot of them in the side yard without a problem. I'm also given a ton of box turtles. Again, I can keep a bunch in large planters in my yard. But my yard (grass area) can only hold one sulcata.

so there you just said, that you are given russians and boxies all the time. therefore there are russians and boxies out there who are passed from home to home, and given up, just like sulcatas. so, sort of you are a foster mom for lots of unwanted russians and boxies until you find them new homes...?

this is the exact same thing that i'm talking about with the double standard. with regards to those people who do not like other people breeding sulcatas because they're given up, (and given to "fosters" like kimber, or to a rescue is still the basic principal of being "given up,") to someone else to take care of, the exact same thing is happening to more species than just sulcatas. kimber just said so herself. it's just "easier" to find the smaller ones new homes, which i totally understand and couldn't logically argue that statement if i wanted to. so, everyone out there breeding russians and boxies better stop if you're of the same mindset that sulcats shouldn't be bred for the exact same reason that kimber is dealing with...!

just my point of view anyways, if anyone on here is going to jump on someone for breeding sulcatas, in my opinion, you should not be breeding any tortoises either because they do, in fact, get given up on a realatively large scale, if you could say "all the time" and "a ton" is a large scale... which i believe you can.

oh dmmj, i love reading your posts, you're like the comic relief in every movie!!

I do see kind of see your point here. Let me add one more thing. Russians and box turtles are still being taken from the wild (I think there a still a few states that allow it - but I may be wrong - hope I am!) I feel that the more breeders can flood the market with captive breds, the less will be removed from the wild - hopefully there will be no market for them. As far as I know (again, I may br wrong) sulcatas are not being wild caught and this doesn't appear to be an issue. (Please someone - let me know if they are - I would like to know.)

This has been a great discussion and has given me much to think about! Thanks everyone!!!!
 

Kristina

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2008
Messages
5,383
Location (City and/or State)
Cadillac, Michigan
kimber_lee_314 said:
I feel that the more breeders can flood the market with captive breds, the less will be removed from the wild - hopefully there will be no market for them.

The biggest problem with captive bred Russians and Boxies that I see is the price. While some would rather buy captive bred because of the lessening of the impact on wild populations, it is cheaper for corporations such as Petco and Petsmart to purchase wild caught tortoises. The make more of a profit on them.

I bought my 4 little wild caught Russians for $65 each. Captive breds run $125 or more. I understand that a lot of this has to do with the costs associated with keeping and breeding the parents and raising the hatchlings, but if people would lower their prices, say $85 or $90 for a captive bred, it might inspire more people to purchase them. That is my plan - I want to sell my hatchlings for prices closer to what is charged for wild caughts. If someone can buy a wc homeana for $40, they aren't going to be as willing to pay $100 or more for a cb baby. It is sad but true. What is really sad about it in the case of the homeana is that a lot of wild caughts simply die due to dehydration, starvation and parasite load. They aren't easy to get started. A cbb wouldn't have those issues, so in the long run WOULD be worth the extra money. It is the initial price tag that scares people away.

I see a lot of the Boxies going for $100. Most of us would never pick a wild turtle or tortoise up and want to keep it. But not everyone has that same attitude, and if they find a turtle that would otherwise cost them $100, they may want to stick with the free/cheap option instead of shelling out the cash.
 

egyptiandan

New Member
10 Year Member!
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2007
Messages
5,794
Location (City and/or State)
USA
The only state you can still get box turtles out of is North Carolina (at least I think they are still doing it). Your right about the sulcatas Kimber, the US hasn't imported sulcatas since 2000. They are though getting pretty rare in Africa. Before 2000 Africa was the leading exporter of sulcatas, since 2000 the US is the leading exporter of sulcata tortoises. :p

Danny
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,971
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
I don't think it much matters what the state allows. Most people don't care about that, and there is no one to report them, because if you're not into tortoises's or turtles's you don't know about the law or even care. I have permits to collect, and own box turtles, and have outdoor pens, and ponds with water turtles, and no one even knows. Also you can buy anything on the net, no matter what the size...4 in. or whatever. There are many, many people who find boxies in the woods or the gulf course around here and just take them. Who's going to stop them, or who even cares. So when people say "this is not allowed, or talk about the 4 in. law, or it's against the law to take from the wild" it really doesn't mean anything, because people do it all the time and never get caught. I'm sure that Julie M. from The Turtle Rescue of Long Island, gets boxies that people take from the wild, and then can't keep them or don't want them. Most of the Sulcata's that she gets in are so deformed and sick. People looking for these guys who are able to give them a good outdoor home should look on her site to see if she has any or if she ships.
 

Stephanie Logan

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
3,415
Location (City and/or State)
Colorado
I'm still wondering where these recent Sulcata-breeder-hating posts are. There have been discussions and debates over whether Sulcata are "throw-away" pets, which also got detoured onto the "world-is-a-bad-place-for-other-animals-not-just-Sulcata" back road...

Sulcata threads tug on my heartstrings because in the eight short months I've been on this forum, it seems like hatchling Sulcata die in front of us way more often than other species (except maybe for Stars). I think that Tyler is a noble fellow and astute businessman and I do not doubt his conviction that he can place as many Sulcata as he can get into good homes. However, it seems clear that there is a surplus of Sulcata in some parts of the country, and a dearth in other areas. Since we cannot control the balance of the Sulcata population, we mourn the premature deaths, mistreatment, and inadvertent neglect of these potentially majestic creatures. It's partly their size. We don't get as upset by the deaths of feral cats as we do by the disposal of excess Mustangs in the American West.

I rarely see an openly rude or angry post about Sulcata breeding. What I see is frustration and sad resignation in the posts of veteran Sulcata keepers on this forum when they have to give out the same desperate advice to yet another clueless novice who has bought a cute little Sulcata hatching on impulse and is killing it slowly, painfully and completely unintentionally. I think folks on here show a LOT of patience, a LOT of compassion, and if they can't help letting a little regret and frustration creep into their tone, that is only to be expected.

I haven't seen any posts recently from Whitshizzle in London, who had bought a Sulcata and was busily setting it up all wrong and resisting the hints and tips he was given here. I cried reading that thread, because it was pretty obvious what was likely to happen to that little guy.

It has far less to do with "hating" Sulcata breeders than it does with feeling the poignance of yet another unnecessary loss or crippling of a helpless baby.
 

kimber_lee_314

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Nov 19, 2008
Messages
2,629
Location (City and/or State)
So Cal
kyryah said:
kimber_lee_314 said:
I feel that the more breeders can flood the market with captive breds, the less will be removed from the wild - hopefully there will be no market for them.

The biggest problem with captive bred Russians and Boxies that I see is the price. While some would rather buy captive bred because of the lessening of the impact on wild populations, it is cheaper for corporations such as Petco and Petsmart to purchase wild caught tortoises. The make more of a profit on them.

I bought my 4 little wild caught Russians for $65 each. Captive breds run $125 or more. I understand that a lot of this has to do with the costs associated with keeping and breeding the parents and raising the hatchlings, but if people would lower their prices, say $85 or $90 for a captive bred, it might inspire more people to purchase them. That is my plan - I want to sell my hatchlings for prices closer to what is charged for wild caughts. If someone can buy a wc homeana for $40, they aren't going to be as willing to pay $100 or more for a cb baby. It is sad but true. What is really sad about it in the case of the homeana is that a lot of wild caughts simply die due to dehydration, starvation and parasite load. They aren't easy to get started. A cbb wouldn't have those issues, so in the long run WOULD be worth the extra money. It is the initial price tag that scares people away.

I see a lot of the Boxies going for $100. Most of us would never pick a wild turtle or tortoise up and want to keep it. But not everyone has that same attitude, and if they find a turtle that would otherwise cost them $100, they may want to stick with the free/cheap option instead of shelling out the cash.

Yes, that's true - that's why I give my hatchlings away - no cost. The only thing I ask is they prove to me they know how to raise one properly.
 

moswen

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
903
i know it's technically illegal to keep boxies or harvest them from the wild in oklahoma, but i also know my sister in law has taken all of hers in because they were found in yards in the middle of the city or i think one she took to the vet bc it got sideswiped by a car, but she takes at least one to the vet every year she says and the vet doesn't say anything excepts to treat it. so, even though it's "illegal" it still happens, just like the 4 inch rule. i don't know about sulcatas being imported anymore, but as i said in my origional post, for this thread, i am 100% for captive tortoises being bred to keep them from being harvested from the wild.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top