"beating a dead horse" so to speak

[moswen2]

hey everyone, it's me beka, i had to create a new account because i can't remember my password lol!! i'll be back to "moswen" monday, when i get back from vacation. so, in starting this new thread i probably won't be able to stay with it or reply, because i'm sure some of you are going to say some nasty things, but i've got some time while it's rainy out so here it goes...

i had never heard of a sulcata tortoise before in my life until i decided i wanted to buy a tortoise and i went online looking for a tortoise. for those of you who don't know me i own three baby sulcata tortoises. now, as a part of this forum i've become aware that there are some pretty avid sulcata breeder haters on this forum, because apparently sulcatas are just saturating the world. sorry, but they're not. there is not a single sulcata breeder in oklahoma that i have found so far, and they are not readily available here. there's also someone else in this forum who has been looking for quite some time for all these "unwanted adult sulcata tortoises who are filling up tortoise rescues," but his name escapes me at this moment. so, obviously they are not everywhere. they are just in your town or sate.

the debatable topic that i'm starting here is that those "haters," if i may use that word, seem to be holding up a double standard in my opinion. the closest rescue from my place of residence is in colorado, and they have three russian tortoises up for adoption, and only one sulcata. or at least they did two weeks ago before i went on my vacation. now how many of you sitting behind your computers saying that sulcatas should not be bred because they're in adoption centers everywhere, are currently incubating russian eggs or hoping for russian eggs this year? because, in my opinion, then if that is your opinion, you should not be breeding your russians because there are russians out there in rescues that need homes.

i agree with the statement that sulcatas can lay 30 eggs per clutch, and they get huge, and that's a lot of babies that need a lot of room, but my goodness people, some of you have so many red foots that you could house a sulcata in the same space, but you're not doing that, you're breeding more red foots! i'm not pointing a finger at anyone for doing anything or saying that what you are doing is wrong, i just think it's too unfair, and too much of a double standard that you people are sitting behind your computer screen passing judgement on people who are doing something that they enjoy, with a tortoise that suits their personal desires, and all the while YOU are contributing to the amount of sulcatas in adoption centers because you're filling up the market with your own babies!

i am 100% for breeding the tortoises that are being taken out of the wild so that you can reduce the amount of wild caught tortoises that are being imported, and i don't think badly of a single person on here that are breeding redfoots or russians or aladabs or pancakes or ANYTHING, i just think everyone should ease up on hating the sulcata breeders. you guys are doing the exact same thing. you're taking the space that someone has for one sulcata, and you're filling it up with twenty red foots, and you're passing negative judgement on the people who are doing something that they enjoy, much like you are doing something that you enjoy.

i know i'm going to get a lot of heated words for this thread, and no one is going to consent and say "you're right beka, i will stop breeding my pancakes." and i'm not asking people to stop breeding and i don't disagree with anyone who is breeding anything, and i'm not saying you're wrong. i'm happy that everyone on here is doing things that they enjoy. i just think the people who hate suclata breeders should ease up on the hating, unless those people stop breeding their tortoises too. even though your red foot (sorry guys i'm not picking on red foots i'm just using you as an example!!) only makes 4 eggs per clutch, and it only gets 10 inches or whatever, if you've bred or you plan on breeding for 5 years, how much space in someone's back yard have you taken up? as opposed to letting that person adopt one of the MILLIONS of unwanted adult sulcatas that are in all of those MILLIONS of rescue groups in the world today? even with one red foot clutch, combined that's more inches than an adult sulcata will get. i don't know of very many 40 inch adult sulcatas running around, unless i am missing something...

so ease up is all i'm saying! lol, that's not really a debate, but i know i'll get some debators on here so i posted it in the debate section... so here we go, i've got my bullet proof vest and hard hat on!

 

[t_mclellan]

I'm sure most of you know, I breed Redfoots.
I also breed a few other tortoise, turtle & lizard species that I don't mention often.
Mainly because I think its MY business what I do & not anyone else's!

When I first joined this forum & read some of the Anti-Sulcata breeding
posts & comments on the numbers in rescues.
I thought to myself, Self I bet if this is true, You need to call Joe Bareducci in Tanzania!
I bet he would love them! Knowing Joe, He could even finagle the TZ government to pay the shipping on a C-130 Tortoise drop!


Oh yeah! I forgot, I should say I agree with Beka!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Good for you beka!

At the rate these hatchlings are being killed...... by "unexperienced/comitted" tortoise "imprisoners".. [ I'm really being nice ] there's no danger of being over-run by sulcatas or any others species for that matter! Saying that doesn't really make me feel any better.. just an observation.

I've also noticed that some of those 'critics' you've mentioned actually keep sulcatas! Hmmmmm......

Terry K

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I don't think there's anything wrong with being against breeding Sulcata and keeping them.

 

[jackrat]

Has anyone thought about developing some really good sulcata recipes?Just kidding.

 

[cdmay]

While I almost never give an opinion in these debates I will say that the issue that beka raises is more complicated than it might seem on the surface.
People should be allowed to keep and breed whatever tortoise species they want as long as they are not endangering wild populations that are in peril or keeping them in a manner that a reasonable person would conclude is cruel. But that goes for ANY pet or animal that people keep, not just large tortoises.
I know many keepers who maintain sulcatas and they lavish care on them. They provide large outdoor accomodations for them and their animals live very nicely.
Having said this, the fact is that people are now breeding sulcatas just like they were breeding Burmese pythons in the 70s and 80s. Anyone can purchase a cute little hatchling spurred tortoise just like they used to be able to purchase cute little Burmese pythons---and believe me, there is no snake cuter or more desireable than a baby Burmese python.
But they don't stay like that and most potential owners who bought those wonderful baby pythons never provided the care that those snakes needed. The result was that they were released into the wild, died from improper care or were turned over to rescue agencies where the majority were (and are) euthanized. Very few Burmese pythons lived long and 'happy' lives in captivity. And now, thanks to the numerous releases and other bad press Burmese pythons are illegal to keep in Florida.
I am afraid that this same scenario is playing out now with African spurred tortoises. Many, if not most that are produced in captivity don't have bright futures ahead of them. The majority of new sulcata owners simply have no idea what they are getting into, or have the mentality of "I'll cross that bridge when I come to it" when informed about how large their new little tortoise will one day become.
But I could say many of the same things about captive hatched red foots or box turtles or any other reptile. And don't even get me started on the countless koi and goldfish that are sold to nitwits who think its OK to keep these potentially large and long lived fish in a bowl.
Does this mean people shouldn't be allowed to keep and breed them or that those people who do breed them should be criticized? Of course not. However the reality is that if you do breed your captive reptiles (of any kind) your precious hatchlings are not all going to die of old age after living a long time in the care of some wonderful person. There are very, very few people who are able (or willing) to provide the kind of space that a big tortoise like a sulcata should have.
That is just the way it is.

 

[moswen2]

HAHAHAHA jackrat! i'm not going to lie, i bought my sullies without telling my husband, but when i finally got up the "gusto" to tell him, he sent out a picture of an adult sulcata to all his work buddies saying "look what my wife bought" and someone replied "turtle soup!" it wasn't funny at the time, but just right now i've got a few shots in me, and what you said was a little bit more funny... i'm actually suprised that no one has taken a bite out of me yet for my post.... but glad!!!

 

[DonaTello's-Mom]

Hi Beka,
I'm neutral on this topic, to each his own. But if you want to talk about over breeding horses.....I can talk all day long on that! Thoroughbreds that are sent to slaughter by the truckloads to Canada and Mexico, shameful. Anyhow here's a link to a rescue group about an hour from where I live, Lompoc, Ca.

Yvonne knows them and gave me their info so I can visit them, I can't wait!! They seem to always have Sulcata's.
http://slo.craigslist.org/pet/1669519540.html
As far as 'haters'....I think maybe thats a little too strong. Just nice folks who are concerned..

 

[Kayti]

Wow, I'd really like to live in an area where sully's weren't throwaway pets.

Every pet store in my area has them, for under $50. On sand, no basking spot, no water. I saw one pet store trying to feed them crickets.

I'm going to start posting some of the CL ads I see. A couple weeks ago, I saw one for a "Socatta Turtle".

I sort of understand why you wouldn't take issue with whole-sale breeders if you never see the results in your area.
I have one of the results in my room, so I can't really ignore it!

 

[t_mclellan]

Carl;
You said many of the things I was trying to figure out just how to say!
Every attempt I made just came out rude! So I settled for what I posted.

 

[terryo]

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oDHTS-...LtWKnQrDpYBSWc-d6IUHDiok/Sulcata Plea pdf.pdf

I don't know about Calif. or Fl., or any other state, but here in NY, there is definitely a problem.

 

[DonaTello's-Mom]

That is very sad Terry.......poor torties.

 

[jackrat]

HAHAHAHA jackrat! i'm not going to lie, i bought my sullies without telling my husband, but when i finally got up the "gusto" to tell him, he sent out a picture of an adult sulcata to all his work buddies saying "look what my wife bought" and someone replied "turtle soup!" it wasn't funny at the time, but just right now i've got a few shots in me, and what you said was a little bit more funny... i'm actually suprised that no one has taken a bite out of me yet for my post.... but glad!!!

Got a coupla shots of quervo in me .Turtle is gooooooood.soup,sauce picant,chicken fried.If there are that many living in such deplorable conditions,why not feed the homeless.

 

[Crazybirds]

I live in central PA and I'm not seeing Sulcata's being available in large numbers. I don't have the room, but I was just curious when I read about the over population of them from a post, so I started checking on them here. I too believe people can do what they want, but in my opinion we just need to educate people/buyers. Educating people is the only way we can directly help these poor Tortoises from having a horrible life or demise! How many people say "i didn't know it was gonna get this big and nobody told me!" Not all people do research before buying them for themselves or their kids, which is a shame, but as I said education! At least if you are breeding and selling them I think the breeder has the responsibility to inform and educate their buyer instead of "which one do you want and feed this thing greens"! The bigger problem is getting these pet shops to actually start caring about what they are selling then educate the buyer, but as we all know it's all about the money which is soooo sad! So sometimes with pet stores it comes down to someone like us standing there when this is happening and correct them...but that doesn't happen all the time!

---

But yeah it is uncalled for for people to be really rude! I'm a newbie here, but I would guess that people shouldn't think I better not post because someone will rip me a new one...that's not fair! Experience or newbie we all want somewhere were we can learn and meet people that love our babies as much as we do!!

 

[moswen]

i remembered my password!! yay.

terryo, i'm so sad to read what you posted. that was indeed a sad link. in NY i'm not sure there is even enough room for people, let alone tortoises who don't choose to live there. i completely agree with the person that wrote that letter though, information is the key. it is sad that there are breeders out there of not just sulcatas but other animals as well who do not send out good information with the buyers of their "produce." it's sad the way the world has become, more interested in denero than the well being of an animal who was not born into the right environment and cannot take care of itself. but i'm not about to revoke my statement that if you are breeding any tortoise than you have no right to speak out so freely against those that are breeding sulcatas.

and kayti, in oklahoma, i've seen three redfoots in a 20 gal long tank at petco being fed tomatoes and iceberg lettuce. when i asked the man feeding them if he was an employee, he said he was the manager of the store. when i asked what type of lettuce he was feeding them, he said "iceberg. it's what they eat. would you like to hold one?" i don't know how many of you out there feed your redfoots iceberg lettuce, but i'm going to venture out there and say, not many, if any. i'm also going to venture out there and say, that manager of the petco would have willingly sold me a redfoot with the instructions of "iceberg lettuce and tomatoes." and that right there would have more than likely ended in a dead or malnurished or deformed tortoise. so, it's not just sulcatas that are housed improperly or sold with wrong information. it just so happens that sulcatas can produce large clutches, so it happens more often. that's it.

and reading through the old posts in the "general torotise" section from the last two weeks while if have been gone, i have seen someone on here trying to rehome some box turtles, and someone tried to buy them and put them in their russian torotise tank, with an iguana living on top. so... there is proof just on this forum that it's not just sulcatas that are sold as "sucotta turtles" or to uninformed keepers. it happens with every torotise, it's just the sulcatas that you see most because they produce the largest clutches. i like my babies, and i wanted them as babies, and i want to see them grow up and become adults. i'm happy that my breeder bred my babies. at this time i don't plan on turning a profit by breeding my babies in 7 years, so i'm not on here already prejudiced against people who don't like sulcata breeders because i plan on doing it. i origionally thought i would because i thought it would be fun, until i joined this forum and learned that there was a need for homes.

i think, to each his own, i just think everyone on here with fangs ready to dig in to the next person who unwittingly joins this forum asking for help with breeding or incubating or anything involving what might look like sulcata eggs, some of you should calm down... if no one bred sulcatas there would be more harvesting from the wild, because obviously there is a market for sulcata babies. some breeders can do their best to inform or provide care sheets, and some individuals just won't care. they just want the "cute little baby" or the "huge torotise" or the birthday present... or they will think "in a few years, i'll move and have enough space" or a million other things could happen. i am personally sorry for all the malformed or uncared for sulcatas in the world, but there are just as many dogs being put down every three days in huge cities that just don't have the room to care for all the unwanted dogs, but there are still people breeding purebreds and buying purebreds. it's just unfair for someone to pass judgement on someone else for any reason, especially when you're breeding as well.

and jill, i have no idea about all the purebred horses being sent to mexico, but that sounds so sad as well!! the world we live in, people are living too much on "impulses" and "what's good or convenient for me at this exact moment in time," you can't even get people to stick to a lifetime of living with one person anymore... it's just sad that animals cannot talk, or there might be less of them being thrown away if they could say something like "i'd like more room" or "i'd like to stay with you" or "i have to have more fiber in my diet please"! some people are so calloused! that's another topic, however...

 

[Tom]

Moswen, you brought up some good points, that I hadn't thought of.

cdmay, you are dead on about this too.

Jill, you are on to the same thing, but might not realize it yet.

Here's my opinion: There is a problem in our society in general with people behaving irresponsibly. All sorts of people from all walks of life. Not just with animals, but with everything. Look at the housing market. SOOOO many people bit of MUCH more than they could chew and now they expect the government (with responsible tax-payers money) to come bail them out!

People acquire animals that they can't, don't or won't take proper care of all the time. Always have, always will. As Jill pointed out this is a big problem with horses. We all know its a big problem with dogs and cats too. What I don't understand is why SO MANY people see this as a big problem with sulcatas. There are a lot more problems with other chelonians and other animals, so why is it so popular to single out the sulcatas? Even the rescuers on this site say that they have tons of RES and boxies, a bunch of russians, but only see a handful of sulcatas every year.

I've been keeping reptiles for 30 years. Professionally for 20. I was part of the whole captive breeding revolution in the late 80's and early 90's. I go to the big shows every year and maintain friendships with a lot of other reptile folks. I just found this forum, and absolutely love it, in January. Until TFO I had never heard this anti-sulcata breeding rhetoric. I was a bit shocked, appalled and dumbfounded. For 10 years, I've been trying to find free tortoises and have come up completely empty. Yet I'm told the rescues are overflowing and this is a huge national problem. NO ITS NOT. When you do find a rescue, such as the one that was recently posted about in Phoenix with over 200 "unwanted" sulcatas, you find out that its really isn't a rescue at all. They are collectors of free tortoises. Breeders and sellers of baby sulcatas, and salespeople trying to SELL these "unwanted" tortoises that were given to them for FREE. Tyler hits this nail on the head better than me every time. He really does deliver a small dose of reality.

So why all the hysteria and negativity about the sulcatas? Why not RES or Russians or Box turtles? If the market were truly flooded wouldn't people be turning them into animal shelters in droves and giving them away for free? As the notable animal guy on the movie and TV crews everyone talks to us about their animals and animal problems. I get offered free stuff all the time. Dogs, cats, fish, parrots, reptiles. I have never been offered a sulcata. Never. Not once. When I see them at shows they are for sale for $800-$1500 for bigger ones. I've never seen hatchlings for sale any cheaper than $60 dollars anywhere in the whole country, and I make it a point to look. Most stores still get over a hundred dollars for them. There just seems to be a bandwagon here and I don't understand why so many people have jumped on it.

Is there a problem with people buying sulcatas and not knowing what they are getting into? Yes. Are they the right pet for everybody? Of course not! What I fail to see is where the huge problem is here in relation to any other responsibility based problem. The problem seems far worse to me with a whole host of other animals. I don't see why sulcata breeding should be discouraged over any other tortoise species. I can understand if you think there are too many tortoises in the world and don't want any more to be bred. I don't agree, but I can see your point of view. But why sulcatas and not all the others that are far worse off?

Here's an example from another very controversial subject: 130 children a year die from gun accidents. As I father, I can tell you that this is terrible and even one death is completely unacceptable. Over 3500 children a year die from accidentally drowning in 5 gallon buckets. We've all heard the cry to ban guns. Where is the cry to ban 5 gallon buckets? I see the sulcata "problem" as the same thing. Sure some sulcatas have been sold to the wrong people and things have gone badly, but it has somehow been blown totally out of proportion.

My goal here is to bring back some perspective to this issue as it seems to have been lost.

---

Wow, I'd really like to live in an area where sully's weren't throwaway pets.

Every pet store in my area has them, for under $50. On sand, no basking spot, no water. I saw one pet store trying to feed them crickets.

I'm going to start posting some of the CL ads I see. A couple weeks ago, I saw one for a "Socatta Turtle".

I sort of understand why you wouldn't take issue with whole-sale breeders if you never see the results in your area.
I have one of the results in my room, so I can't really ignore it!

Kayti, I don't disagree with you. Pet stores often don't take proper care of sulcatas and don't offer the right advice. My question to you is, how is this any different than any other species? For example the aforementioned goldfish in a bowl. I could walk through any pet store in America and shred them up and down for their lack of proper care of dozens of species.

I think the sulcata "problem" is more of a general societal problem of lack of responsibility and ignorance.

I'm referring to the pet profession, not you personally. Its obvious that YOU do provide proper care for your animals and are NOT ignorant or irresponsible.

 

[moswen]

good points tom, as always!

 

[kimber_lee_314]

Just one more thing to think about ... people give me Russians all the time. I can keep a lot of them in the side yard without a problem. I'm also given a ton of box turtles. Again, I can keep a bunch in large planters in my yard. But my yard (grass area) can only hold one sulcata. They are so big - it makes it difficult for rescues to house them and find fosters. I don't hate sulcata breeders, but I don't agree with it in my area. People give me sulcatas all the time - and I end up having to drive them way up north where a friend of mine has a large amount of property and keeps them. I can find good homes for the Russians and box turtles. Finding a good home for the sulcatas - including the kind of space it takes to properly care for one - isn't as easy.

 

[Tom]

Good heavens, Kimber. I'm only 45 minutes away from you. I've got room for females, if they come your way.

 

[Annieski]

What if all she gets are males---there in lies the problem. Just my thinking.