Back Again: Inquiring some Leopard Info

mikeylazer

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
310
Sooo a couple years back I was highly active on the tortoise forum threads. I posted often, and still do have an average understanding of a little bit of everything in the tortoise world.

I had a paradalis babcocki, who I received from a breeder as a baby, and grew him out of infancy. Some of you may remember multiple growth threads in relation to him as well as enclosure advice and tutorials I posted.

During this time I was in college (not living in a dorm, but living in a house) and my leo “Simon” lived with me. All was great, he was growing weekly by at least a gram or two, I was very specific in his feeding regimen, took great care on daily soaks, etc.

Shortly after a lot of my posting on here (probably at my peak activity on the forum), Simon started to decline rapidly, losing weight, loss of appetite, lethargic. Upon taking him to the only vet available, she could not diagnose any direct problems with him and we tossed around what could have been causing it. Long sorry short, he died within 2 weeks of him ahowing signs, and I really thought I was in the clear with getting him out of the baby stage, but I guess I was wrong.

Instead of seeking advice from the community, I felt betrayed by the tortoises and basically threw my stuff in the basement and gave up until I graduated college. I was angry and frustrated and wasnt sure if I would want to come back to owning another leopard (always has been my favorite species), and maybe just stick to my redfoot for the time being.

I graduated last may, have been working, looking to buy a place of my own, and kicked up the idea of owning another leopard, only this time NOT getting a baby.

Im happy to be back and second time is hopefully the charm here!

My main question is (and I am in no rush and willing to wait) does anyone know of any breeders of paradalis paradalis (Giant Leopard Tortoises as some people call them). After some recent and extensive research, I have decided on owning a gpp instead of a gbp because we all know bigger is better! (Just kidding *kind of*)

Anyways sorry for such a long post but it is good to be back and any help in finding a reliable gpp breeder (preferably no hybrids) would be great! Thanks guys!!
 

SteveW

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
255
Hey Mike. Welcome back. Sorry about the baby. Most of us have had bad experiences along the way.
As for GPP, let me be the first of many to suggest you talk to @Tom.
 

mikeylazer

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
310
Hey Mike. Welcome back. Sorry about the baby. Most of us have had bad experiences along the way.
As for GPP, let me be the first of many to suggest you talk to @Tom.

Great thanks! I remember the legendary Tom from back in the day haha. Not sure that I ever knew he bred gpp but now i am very intrigued!
 

SteveW

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 4, 2015
Messages
255
They are intriguing. I have one on the way in a couple of weeks myself.
 
N

no one

Guest
Sorry for your loss... I know how it feels. I lost Sterretje, my little Star Tortoise last year. Hope you will get your new Leopard from Tom. Like I have got my new Star now. If I lived in America I would get my Tortoise from Tom, that is for sure!!
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,660
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Great thanks! I remember the legendary Tom from back in the day haha. Not sure that I ever knew he bred gpp but now i am very intrigued!
Welcome back. Sorry for the tuff time you had with your shelled one. Very glad your willing to give it a try. You won't go wrong with buying one from Tom. They are started the right way and he's willing to help every step if needed.
The biggest problem your going to have though is wanting one that's not a hatchling. Good luck and contact @Tom
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Welcome back Mikeylazer! I remember your username.

On the surface, it sounds like you had a classic case of "Breeder Failure Syndrome". I always like to try to figure out what went wrong so that the mistake is not repeated. In so many cases like yours, the mistake is made by the breeder or seller, before the new owner even gets the tortoise. Many of these damaged babies will eat, drink, explore and act normal, but their kidneys are damaged and no matter what any one does, no matter what vet you go to or how much money you spend, they cannot be saved. The solution is to buy from a breeder that starts them right. Babies should be soaked daily and they should not spend all day outside. They should be introduced to a wide variety of foods, not just romaine and spring mix, and they should be living in warm humid monsoon conditions.

Where did you get your original baby and how was it started?

Here is what goes wrong in many of thee cases:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here is how it should be done:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/
 

mikeylazer

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
310
Welcome back Mikeylazer! I remember your username.

On the surface, it sounds like you had a classic case of "Breeder Failure Syndrome". I always like to try to figure out what went wrong so that the mistake is not repeated. In so many cases like yours, the mistake is made by the breeder or seller, before the new owner even gets the tortoise. Many of these damaged babies will eat, drink, explore and act normal, but their kidneys are damaged and no matter what any one does, no matter what vet you go to or how much money you spend, they cannot be saved. The solution is to buy from a breeder that starts them right. Babies should be soaked daily and they should not spend all day outside. They should be introduced to a wide variety of foods, not just romaine and spring mix, and they should be living in warm humid monsoon conditions.

Where did you get your original baby and how was it started?

Here is what goes wrong in many of thee cases:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

By contrast, here is how it should be done:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/how-to-incubate-eggs-and-start-hatchlings.124266/

Hey Tom!

Thanks for the insight!

He was a breeder on Kingsnake that I found named Rick. He was very thourough in his explanation of how the baby was raised, fed, etc. but now that you say all of this, I fear the baby may have spent to much time outside as he was from arizona if I remember correctly.

As for my care, it was pretty much textbook when it came to advice from you guys. Closed chamber, mercury vapor and che with thermometers on each end and one under the mvb. I hit all temps on the head, and humidity never fell below 80%. He was fed a large mix of greens from grasses and clover to endive, occasional spring mix, and mazuri pellets as supplemental food. He was soaked daily abd weighed weekly. He had a soaking dish, a hide, proper substrate in his setup (indoors only) I pretty much established him from what i read on here and didnt take anything into my own hands.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hey Tom!

Thanks for the insight!

He was a breeder on Kingsnake that I found named Rick. He was very thourough in his explanation of how the baby was raised, fed, etc. but now that you say all of this, I fear the baby may have spent to much time outside as he was from arizona if I remember correctly.

As for my care, it was pretty much textbook when it came to advice from you guys. Closed chamber, mercury vapor and che with thermometers on each end and one under the mvb. I hit all temps on the head, and humidity never fell below 80%. He was fed a large mix of greens from grasses and clover to endive, occasional spring mix, and mazuri pellets as supplemental food. He was soaked daily abd weighed weekly. He had a soaking dish, a hide, proper substrate in his setup (indoors only) I pretty much established him from what i read on here and didnt take anything into my own hands.
There are many breeders, experts, and tortoise keepers around the globe that think its good to keep babies outside all day. I've done multiple side-by-side experiments that prove otherwise, but the myth persists. Many still mistakenly profess that babies do "better' outside all day. I hear from their customers when the baby begins to fail, like yours, and the people just can't understand why their baby is dying when they did everything right. I have to explain that no matter how good their care was, their baby's fate was sealed by the breeder who left them outside every day and didn't soak often enough.

Hatchlings and little babies need warm humid monsoon conditions from day 1 out of the egg. They need it even more than the older babies that are getting sold and going to their new homes. The chronic dehydration destroys their kidneys and no amount of good care, vet care, money, or love, can repair damaged kidneys. The tricky part about all of this is that there is no way to tell how badly damaged the kidneys are and this usually doesn't kill them for several weeks or months. If the damage isn't too bad, some will survive. The people who raise their babies this way point to the examples of the survivors and proclaim: "See. So and so's baby is doing fine…" While failing to acknowledge the percentage of their babies that die despite excellent care given by their new owners.

Here is how I start my babies. They get daily soaks. Daily, as in every day. All of them thrive. They are healthy inside and out.
I've got a large well started Gpp if you are interested. She's about three months old now and about 80 grams, so well past that danger zone where they fail at around 50 grams. https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/new-stack-of-animal-plastics-closed-chambers.165626/
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,173
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Your Long post is well received by me. I have a thread, something about nakedness, of the emotional/intellectual type. I fully get the give it a rest POV on many things. Glad to hear you're on the diploma side of college.

I have been raising many baby leopards and in a group of 20 to 30, some grow and thrive and then just don't anymore. You might consider that under your care that past leo had a better shot than in another person's care or in the wild. There is no knowing sometimes.

There is a great deal of mythology regarding the 'trueness' of the southern African race of leopard tortoises. It is not easy to discern the feces from the truthful misinformation to the true information. Many people feel they have a stake in the debate based on time and diligence to one of the trueness-es and or the investment in time or money OR some combination of these things.

Get images of the adults from the breeder of the exact one that you might purchase. Get the history of those adults. 'nough said on that.
 

MichaelS

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 19, 2014
Messages
166
Location (City and/or State)
Florida Suncoast
Sorry for your loss but don't beat yourself up (or the tort). Any one who has raised multiple hatchling will have similar stories. I've lost my share of hatchlings before I figured things out and that means my husbandry practices and that of the breeders.

I've purchased several 'normal' Leos from @Will as well as other breeders and I can say with confidence that he and @Yvonne G make a great tort team and I would not hesitate to buy any tort hatched and started by them.

Also I have a group of 6 South African leos (gpp) that I got from @Tom. They were about 3 months old when I got them and now they are coming up on a year and all are doing great so you can't go wrong there either.

Good luck
 

mikeylazer

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 3, 2015
Messages
310
Thank you so much for all the support and added advice! Tom I will PM you about the female gpp that you currently have as you have definitely peaked my interest! I am glad to be at a point in my life once again were I feel I can devote the time and energy unto owning my favorite kind of tortoise.

Thanks all
 
Top