Baby Hermann's and Baby Marginated together?

[John Stamos]

I have a baby Hermann's tortoise named Shell-E and I wanted to get him/her a companion for when I'm at work during the day. I was thinking maybe a baby Marginated or Russian would be a good fit. I know that its not smart to mix species...but I wanted to get something diff than another Hermann's to add a little variety. Any suggestions for a new tort owner?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

 

[Tom]

Species should not be mixed.

Pairs are not a good idea. They seldom get along.

Tortoises do NOT need or want companions. They are happiest when they are the sole king of the castle and don't have to share food, sleeping spots, or any other resources. Shell E does NOT want a companion. Another tortoise will be viewed as an intruder, combatant or attacker.

Get as many tortoises as you want but give them their own enclosure and don't mix species. Groups of three or more give you a better chance for successful co-habitation, but there are no guarantees, especially with Testudo.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Tom is correct...about the only way pairs work is if both are females of the same species AND the enclosure is fairly roomy, and even then you should quarantine the new one for at least a few months, to make sure the new one is healthy.

 

[Baoh]

A marginated tortoise and a Hermann's tortoise (and a Greek tortoise in one section of the range) would/do occupy the same areas and meet relatively frequently in their natural habitat. I have seen it many times. Neither the marginated nor the Hermann's would ever meet a Russian in nature. Not sure if that would factor into your choice.

I have raised all four species together (and apart) successfully. They are exceedingly easy to keep in my experience.

I will warn you, though. If your Hermann's ends up a male, it may be the most aggressive breeder of any type of tortoise you will ever find. Mine have often been. If it ends up a female, easy street.

 

[John Stamos]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

 

[Baoh]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Basically, adelphos mou.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

 

[Baoh]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

No difference between mixing them versus mixing members of their own.

They occur in the same area in nature, which is cool to see for those who have seen it. Nature gets lucky...every day.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

No difference between mixing them versus mixing members of their own.

They occur in the same area in nature, which is cool to see for those who have seen it. Nature gets lucky...every day.

How does the tortoise owner know what part of his/her tortoise's home range his/her specimen originated from? T. h. boettgeri inhabits Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece, while T. h. hercegovinensis populates the coasts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Montenegro. And that's just the range of the two most common subspecies of T. hermanni...

Testudo marginata hales from Greece, Italy and the Balkans.

Testudo Graeca, all 7 subspecies, is from North Africa and southern Europe to southwest Asia...that's a lot of real estate, in more than one climate. The ones in the northern range hibernate, but you can kill one from a southern part of it's range by hibernating it...and, because they cover so much geographic area, not all Graeca are immune to the same "bugs", and, if one get's sick, and you don't notice (you're a newbie, remember?), that can cause every tort in the enclosure to be exposed to disease.

So, again, think about how the average tortoise-newbie is going to know exactly where each individual tortoise he or she might get originated.

It's just not a good idea to imply that everybody can mix species without losing animals.

It's a risky thing to do.

 

[Yvonne G]

John:

Leave mixing species to the more experienced tortoise keeper. A new keeper such as yourself needs to concentrate on learning how to care for each species individually. Most of us don't mix species, whether their native territories overlap or not.

What Tom told you is very true. Most tortoises don't want or need company. They much prefer to have their territory all to themselves.

After you have a few tortoise keeping years under your belt, then you might try mixing species. But bear in mind that adding tortoises to existing creatures doesn't always work. Sometimes the tortoises get sick and die.

 

[Baoh]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

No difference between mixing them versus mixing members of their own.

They occur in the same area in nature, which is cool to see for those who have seen it. Nature gets lucky...every day.

How does the tortoise owner know what part of his/her tortoise's home range his/her specimen originated from? T. h. boettgeri inhabits Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece, while T. h. hercegovinensis populates the coasts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Montenegro. And that's just the range of the two most common subspecies of T. hermanni...

Testudo marginata hales from Greece, Italy and the Balkans.

Testudo Graeca, all 7 subspecies, is from North Africa and southern Europe to southwest Asia...that's a lot of real estate, in more than one climate. The ones in the northern range hibernate, but you can kill one from a southern part of it's range by hibernating it...and, because they cover so much geographic area, not all Graeca are immune to the same "bugs", and, if one get's sick, and you don't notice (you're a newbie, remember?), that can cause every tort in the enclosure to be exposed to disease.

So, again, think about how the average tortoise-newbie is going to know exactly where each individual tortoise he or she might get originated.

It's just not a good idea to imply that everybody can mix species without losing animals.

It's a risky thing to do.

The average tortoise newbie in the US will be dealing with hatchlings from...wait for it...the US. He would be dealing with CB and the wild individuals of Thb and Tmm interact throughout Greece and some graeca in the North of the nation. No special problems with them that are any different than dealing with CB individuals of the same of either one of the two (or three) species. The WC get along well in nature. The CB have a leg up with a potentially even cleaner slate.

It is very easy to keep these together as long as mature males are not confined in inadequate space or the male-to-female ratio is kept appropriately diluted relative to male territoriality and sexual ardor.

I observed these animals every summer in the parts of the natural range that my family owns land in from ~1987 to ~1998. On top of that, I had kept them from 1987 until 1999 as pets in PA in mostly mixed groups and they lived and reproduced very well. Sold the last of those off before starting any of my undergraduate legs. Never saw the plagues of crap some people have and some people have parroted from people who both have and have not, but I never tossed un-quarantined animals into my domestic collections, either. Nor did I keep infected animals in the same room with uninfected animals, which could have led to their untimely deaths had I been remiss with my "gowning" (really just gloving for that) practices. Many, many hatchlings. Looking back, I am a little surprised I did not get any Tmm x Tgi hybrids, but my big Tmm boy only seemed to have an for his Tmm girls and I think the "skirt" of marginals on the big girls prevented the rest of my comparatively small Testudo males from having a successful go.

The risk is not really any different than introducing a Thb to a Thb or a Tmm to a Tmm, so there is always a risk, but no different a level.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Wow, thanks everyone for all of the responses! So it sounds like if my tort turns out to be a girl then things get much easier in terms of co-habitation. Hermanns, Marginated, and Greeks could all work together if there was enough space and if they were all females. Otherwise they would each need their own enclosures. Or the other option would be to just leave it alone and not bring another tort into the situation. Correct?

I love my baby C.B. Hermann Tortoise!
(Shell-E)

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

No difference between mixing them versus mixing members of their own.

They occur in the same area in nature, which is cool to see for those who have seen it. Nature gets lucky...every day.

How does the tortoise owner know what part of his/her tortoise's home range his/her specimen originated from? T. h. boettgeri inhabits Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece, while T. h. hercegovinensis populates the coasts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Montenegro. And that's just the range of the two most common subspecies of T. hermanni...

Testudo marginata hales from Greece, Italy and the Balkans.

Testudo Graeca, all 7 subspecies, is from North Africa and southern Europe to southwest Asia...that's a lot of real estate, in more than one climate. The ones in the northern range hibernate, but you can kill one from a southern part of it's range by hibernating it...and, because they cover so much geographic area, not all Graeca are immune to the same "bugs", and, if one get's sick, and you don't notice (you're a newbie, remember?), that can cause every tort in the enclosure to be exposed to disease.

So, again, think about how the average tortoise-newbie is going to know exactly where each individual tortoise he or she might get originated.

It's just not a good idea to imply that everybody can mix species without losing animals.

It's a risky thing to do.

The average tortoise newbie in the US will be dealing with hatchlings from...wait for it...the US. He would be dealing with CB and the wild individuals of Thb and Tmm interact throughout Greece and some graeca in the North of the nation. No special problems with them that are any different than dealing with CB individuals of the same of either one of the two (or three) species. The WC get along well in nature. The CB have a leg up with a potentially even cleaner slate.

It is very easy to keep these together as long as mature males are not confined in inadequate space or the male-to-female ratio is kept appropriately diluted relative to male territoriality and sexual ardor.

I observed these animals every summer in the parts of the natural range that my family owns land in from ~1987 to ~1998. On top of that, I had kept them from 1987 until 1999 as pets in PA in mostly mixed groups and they lived and reproduced very well. Sold the last of those off before starting any of my undergraduate legs. Never saw the plagues of crap some people have and some people have parroted from people who both have and have not, but I never tossed un-quarantined animals into my domestic collections, either. Nor did I keep infected animals in the same room with uninfected animals, which could have led to their untimely deaths had I been remiss with my "gowning" (really just gloving for that) practices. Many, many hatchlings. Looking back, I am a little surprised I did not get any Tmm x Tgi hybrids, but my big Tmm boy only seemed to have an for his Tmm girls and I think the "skirt" of marginals on the big girls prevented the rest of my comparatively small Testudo males from having a successful go.

The risk is not really any different than introducing a Thb to a Thb or a Tmm to a Tmm, so there is always a risk, but no different a level.

It's VERY risky idea, and I'm basing this on about 40 years of keeping tortoises...have you noticed that other experienced tort-keepers also consider it risky behavior and that you are very lucky?

It's not a conspiracy!

John:

Leave mixing species to the more experienced tortoise keeper. A new keeper such as yourself needs to concentrate on learning how to care for each species individually. Most of us don't mix species, whether their native territories overlap or not.

What Tom told you is very true. Most tortoises don't want or need company. They much prefer to have their territory all to themselves.

After you have a few tortoise keeping years under your belt, then you might try mixing species. But bear in mind that adding tortoises to existing creatures doesn't always work. Sometimes the tortoises get sick and die.

Well said, ma'am.

 

[Baoh]

To Yanni, I have even seen marginata and hermanni eating on the Athenian acropolis during my first visit. Most of my observations of wild animals, however, occurred in Evia in Prokopi and some others in Pili, Kamaritsa, Halkida, and I had some limited experiences around Thessaloniki (where I observed some Greeks along with the other two species; the previous list of places were of only marginata and hermanni). Plenty of mixing. Plenty of non-mixing. I would track most of the same adults year after year and release them at the beginning of September before I would return to my home here in the US for school.

Why? Etsi. lol

---

Not really...mixing them could still be disasterous.

Just because some folks are lucky when mixing them doesn't mean that that is the norm. Something worth thinking long about.

No difference between mixing them versus mixing members of their own.

They occur in the same area in nature, which is cool to see for those who have seen it. Nature gets lucky...every day.

How does the tortoise owner know what part of his/her tortoise's home range his/her specimen originated from? T. h. boettgeri inhabits Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania, and Greece, while T. h. hercegovinensis populates the coasts of Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croatia, and Montenegro. And that's just the range of the two most common subspecies of T. hermanni...

Testudo marginata hales from Greece, Italy and the Balkans.

Testudo Graeca, all 7 subspecies, is from North Africa and southern Europe to southwest Asia...that's a lot of real estate, in more than one climate. The ones in the northern range hibernate, but you can kill one from a southern part of it's range by hibernating it...and, because they cover so much geographic area, not all Graeca are immune to the same "bugs", and, if one get's sick, and you don't notice (you're a newbie, remember?), that can cause every tort in the enclosure to be exposed to disease.

So, again, think about how the average tortoise-newbie is going to know exactly where each individual tortoise he or she might get originated.

It's just not a good idea to imply that everybody can mix species without losing animals.

It's a risky thing to do.

The average tortoise newbie in the US will be dealing with hatchlings from...wait for it...the US. He would be dealing with CB and the wild individuals of Thb and Tmm interact throughout Greece and some graeca in the North of the nation. No special problems with them that are any different than dealing with CB individuals of the same of either one of the two (or three) species. The WC get along well in nature. The CB have a leg up with a potentially even cleaner slate.

It is very easy to keep these together as long as mature males are not confined in inadequate space or the male-to-female ratio is kept appropriately diluted relative to male territoriality and sexual ardor.

I observed these animals every summer in the parts of the natural range that my family owns land in from ~1987 to ~1998. On top of that, I had kept them from 1987 until 1999 as pets in PA in mostly mixed groups and they lived and reproduced very well. Sold the last of those off before starting any of my undergraduate legs. Never saw the plagues of crap some people have and some people have parroted from people who both have and have not, but I never tossed un-quarantined animals into my domestic collections, either. Nor did I keep infected animals in the same room with uninfected animals, which could have led to their untimely deaths had I been remiss with my "gowning" (really just gloving for that) practices. Many, many hatchlings. Looking back, I am a little surprised I did not get any Tmm x Tgi hybrids, but my big Tmm boy only seemed to have an for his Tmm girls and I think the "skirt" of marginals on the big girls prevented the rest of my comparatively small Testudo males from having a successful go.

The risk is not really any different than introducing a Thb to a Thb or a Tmm to a Tmm, so there is always a risk, but no different a level.

It's VERY risky idea, and I'm basing this on about 40 years of keeping tortoises...have you noticed that other experienced tort-keepers also consider it risky behavior and that you are very lucky?

It's not a conspiracy!

No more risky than introducing either of the same to another like itself and I have been observing them here and where they are from for a long time as well. I do not subscribe to any argumentum ad populum on the matter, either.