Arizona Power Play

Status
Not open for further replies.

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,062
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
Stephanie Logan said:
A corporate CEO has a lot more influence over federal legislation and government regulations than the Hispanic custodian at this elementary school, and you know that.

As long as we have privately-financed political campaigns, that truth will not change.

Apples to apples, Stephanie. Do you think there's nobody on the liberal side that has just as much influence as a big business owner? Do you think I have as much influence as someone like Oprah?

Stephanie Logan said:
Well then, where are these illegals working? Who hires them, and why?
It's not very patriotic, and whoever is hiring should be fined, no? If no one hires them they will have no reason to come here and will stay in Mexico.

It's not always the businesses that have illegals working for them that are automatically at fault. If someone shows up with what appear to be all legal documents, is the business supposed to question them? Talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen.... I work in construction, and everyone we hire shows up with papers and documentation that appear to be completely legit. Are they all legit? Probably not - but that's not our problem to solve, is it? And if so, how would we solve this? Go around asking again for papers? And if presented, do what?

If any of you remember the primary presidential race, they got on Mitt Romney for supposedly having an illegal person trimming his trees, when he had simply hired a company to maintain his landscaping. Was he supposed to question the guys he saw working in his yard? Of course not. He would be sued if he did.
 

Stephanie Logan

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
3,415
Location (City and/or State)
Colorado
Well then, where are these illegals working? Who hires them, and why?
It's not very patriotic, and whoever is hiring should be fined, no? If no one hires them they will have no reason to come here and will stay in Mexico.

I completely agree that Mexico needs to get its political house in order, and just leans on their rich neighbor to help them take care of their own internal economic problems, and that's wrong.

dmmj said:
I wonder who are these big businesses I always hear about? Walmart? one of the biggest out there do they hire illegal immigrants? Apple? another big one, do they hire illegal immigrants? Grocery stores? they are big do they hire illegal immigrants?
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,695
Location (City and/or State)
CA
Stephanie Logan said:
Well then, where are these illegals working? Who hires them, and why?
It's not very patriotic, and whoever is hiring should be fined, no? If no one hires them they will have no reason to come here and will stay in Mexico.

I completely agree that Mexico needs to get its political house in order, and just leans on their rich neighbor to help them take care of their own internal economic problems, and that's wrong.

dmmj said:
I wonder who are these big businesses I always hear about? Walmart? one of the biggest out there do they hire illegal immigrants? Apple? another big one, do they hire illegal immigrants? Grocery stores? they are big do they hire illegal immigrants?

Correct me if I am wrong but you said big business hures illegals so I was just wonnering which big businesses do? I am pretty sure that there are a lot working as gardeners, day laborers and such not a lot of big businesses there.
 

Stephanie Logan

Active Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 17, 2009
Messages
3,415
Location (City and/or State)
Colorado
The point is, where do we go from here to solve the problem as efficiently as thoroughly as possible?

I support a national ID card so employers will know who's legal and who's not, and if there aren't significant fines for hiring illegals, I believe the practice will continue, no matter who's doing the hiring.
 

eliscott

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
8
TylerStewart said:
It's not always the businesses that have illegals working for them that are automatically at fault. If someone shows up with what appear to be all legal documents, is the business supposed to question them? Talk about a lawsuit waiting to happen.... I work in construction, and everyone we hire shows up with papers and documentation that appear to be completely legit.

Firstly, to provide a small dose of reality, if you process an employee with a social security number or a tax id, which would constitute "all legal documents" for work, they pay (1) state and federal income tax (2) social security. Thus, these illegals are indeed paying taxes into the American System, despite your previous assertion that they do not.

Are they all legit? Probably not - but that's not our problem to solve, is it? And if so, how would we solve this? Go around asking again for papers? And if presented, do what?

A federal database exists: http://www.dhs.gov/files/programs/gc_1185221678150.shtm

In California, all employers have a legal obligation to perform this check. Federally, no employees are to be hired without a completed I-9 on file. This form will contain the information needed to utilize the government service I linked. I would argue that to take a conservative stance on this issue, one must be willing to take responsibility for their workforce. Conservative ideals stress personal responsibility in-place of government regulation. This seems like an ideal place to put this value into practice and be a shining example to others as to how a responsible employer ensures that he is part of the solution, and not part of the problem.

If any of you remember the primary presidential race, they got on Mitt Romney for supposedly having an illegal person trimming his trees, when he had simply hired a company to maintain his landscaping. Was he supposed to question the guys he saw working in his yard? Of course not. He would be sued if he did.

I believe the hullabaloo was about him professing to be a staunch critic of illegal immigration, with him questioning the legitimacy of migrant workers in theory. However, in practice he does not perform his due diligence to ensure his reality is in line with his values.

And to the gentleman who questions which big businesses hire illegals, asserting that they are primarily gardeners and janitors - look at the manufacturing industries, especially plastics and metal fabrication. These industries that are vital to our economy and represent the base of the raw materials industry are predominantly staffed by migrant workers with stolen social security numbers, who work for minimum wage and pay the aforementioned taxes into the system.

I hope you enjoyed this small dose of reality.
 

TylerStewart

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
1,062
Location (City and/or State)
Las Vegas, NV.
eliscott said:
I hope you enjoyed this small dose of reality.

Well, I did, besides a few things:

eliscott said:
Firstly, to provide a small dose of reality, if you process an employee with a social security number or a tax id, which would constitute "all legal documents" for work, they pay (1) state and federal income tax (2) social security. Thus, these illegals are indeed paying taxes into the American System, despite your previous assertion that they do not.

Maybe I missed it, but where did I state that they're not paying taxes? There are taxes taken out of paychecks before we get them. Then we file in April like everybody else does. Some workers do, others don't. But you do realize how easy it is to get fake documentation, right? We have copies of it all on file, and we follow all state laws. I think the majority of companies do. As far as we know (and we have everything we need to have one file), we are hiring legal workers. I'm not the owner, so it's not my job to take that information, but we (and many other companies) aren't knowingly doing anything illegal. If they came and tried to do a big bust on us, we have everything we need to have to protect ourselves. If they don't like the way it's going, they can change the law.

eliscott said:
I believe the hullabaloo was about him professing to be a staunch critic of illegal immigration, with him questioning the legitimacy of migrant workers in theory. However, in practice he does not perform his due diligence to ensure his reality is in line with his values.

So without the run-around and sugar coating you're giving it, you think Romney should have gone up to each of the workers working on his landscaping and asked them for their documentation? So by me buying something from Wal Mart who might accidentally have an illegal worker working for them, I'm going against my own values?
 

dmmj

The member formerly known as captain awesome
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 15, 2008
Messages
19,695
Location (City and/or State)
CA
Man it is gonna take me a long time now to go to the store when I have to go up to every employee and ask for their ID's so I can be sure I don't get blamed for supporting businesses hiring illegals aliens now. guess I won't shop anywhere now.I don't want to get mitt romneyed.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,975
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
Where I live there are many streets where you can go pick up Mexican men to work for the day. Sometimes you will see literary 20 or more standing on corners waiting for someone to hire them for the day. No one asks if they have papers. You pick them up, they work for the day, you pay them, and then they go home . They do not work on the books, and of course don't pay any taxes. All contractors here do this,(unless they are working on an all union job, and then you won't see any illegal, or legal aliens), and fake documentation of any kind is the easiest thing to get.
 

terryo

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 24, 2007
Messages
8,975
Location (City and/or State)
Staten Island, New York
I have to add something to my post or I wouldn't be very honest. I have used these men many times, and they are always respectful, honest and very hard working. They have sat at my table with me for lunch and helped me when they didn't have to. I guess this is off topic, but it wouldn't be fair if I didn't say this.
 

eliscott

New Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2010
Messages
8
TylerStewart said:
Maybe I missed it, but where did I state that they're not paying taxes?

I'll concede you may not have said this, but others have in this thread and it's a common argument that illegals get benefits without paying into the system. That's just simply not true in all cases. In many cases they pay into the system and are officially entitled to no benefits. However, it is unethical for a doctor to turn down a patient in need to medical care. See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath#Modern_Version. A doctor will generally always treat a patient regardless of legal status, and Illegals generally get treatment at free clinics, which is paid for by the tax payer. This is an unofficial government benefit that they ARE entitled to because doctors are compassionate with their care. I would, however, argue obesity and diabetes are a larger financial drain on the medical system, especially through medicare and government health programs, than illegal immigrants are.

There are taxes taken out of paychecks before we get them. Then we file in April like everybody else does. Some workers do, others don't. But you do realize how easy it is to get fake documentation, right?

That was the crux of my argument - illegals can easily obtain solen identities, and those identities are used on I-9 forms to get hired and paid "above the table." As such, these illegal employees pay taxes, and it's hard for me to see these immigrants as a drain on the system. Though I do not agree with identity theft.

We have copies of it all on file, and we follow all state laws. I think the majority of companies do. As far as we know (and we have everything we need to have one file), we are hiring legal workers. I'm not the owner, so it's not my job to take that information, but we (and many other companies) aren't knowingly doing anything illegal. If they came and tried to do a big bust on us, we have everything we need to have to protect ourselves. If they don't like the way it's going, they can change the law.

Your argument here is for larger government which will need greater resources to operate. I just wanted to point that out. My argument was that, as a conservative who is for limited federal government and personal responsibility, and passionate about immigration policy, it would make sense to do everything you can to ensure an employee applying for a job is a legal resident. I understand you may not have the power to do that currently in your position, but that's doesn't mean you can't advocate for a process change internally. A mechanism exists for you to do this, and I provided a link to that mechanism. You are now empowered to do you part to fight hiring of illegal workers! Yes! :)

So without the run-around and sugar coating you're giving it, you think Romney should have gone up to each of the workers working on his landscaping and asked them for their documentation? So by me buying something from Wal Mart who might accidentally have an illegal worker working for them, I'm going against my own values?

No. I think Romney should have done everything he could to ensure the subcontractor he was hiring was diligent about hiring legal workers, and advocate to that subcontractor that if he were ever to find out that they hired illegals, he would take his business elsewhere. Likewise, if you are aware of a company that hires illegal immigrants or practices business in a way you find counter to your personal values, I think you should take your business elsewhere. In a mixed market economy, it's sometimes more effective to vote with your wallet 365 days out of the year than at the ballot box every 2 years. I do this when I buy food, gasoline, and any other product. I look at my options and make an informed choice based on a company's track record. I concede you can't always have the most acurate or reliable information, but you can take the information you have and make the BEST choice based on what you know. Because of walmart's track record on illegal immigrant hiring as well as their primary dependence on products produced in China, I do not shop there. I tend to purchase products made locally as much as possible, or from corporations that have good ethical and environmental standards. I mean, it's admittedly hard to get electronics manufactured in the USA, but I know if I buy a computer made by ASUS rather than Acer or HP, I'll be getting a product that more aligns to my personal values. Again, this is just personal responsibility in practice.

Now, to respond to some other people....
Man it is gonna take me a long time now to go to the store when I have to go up to every employee and ask for their ID's so I can be sure I don't get blamed for supporting businesses hiring illegals aliens now. guess I won't shop anywhere now.I don't want to get mitt romneyed.

Not what I was advocating. I was advocating EMPLOYERS empowering themselves, taking responsibility, and doing all they can to ensure people they hire are legal status. I provided a mechanism for employers to do this. Beyond that, I was advocating choosing a subcontractor/retail shop/corporation to do business with based on the best available information you have about their business practices. Being responsible about how you spend your money is a no-brainer if you want illegal immigration to stop.

Where I live there are many streets where you can go pick up Mexican men to work for the day. Sometimes you will see literary 20 or more standing on corners waiting for someone to hire them for the day. No one asks if they have papers. You pick them up, they work for the day, you pay them, and then they go home . They do not work on the books, and of course don't pay any taxes. All contractors here do this,(unless they are working on an all union job, and then you won't see any illegal, or legal aliens), and fake documentation of any kind is the easiest thing to get.

I used to live in Riverside, CA, blocks from a home depot where illegals would congregate for just this purpose. I never picked them up and did all yard and housework myself. I also visited a plastics plant in Ontario, CA to pick up some materials for a job I needed to do and witnessed literally hundreds of illegals working in the factory. This is an order of magnitude difference, and underscores where the true lure for illegals is: skilled, blue-collar corporate jobs obtained by utilizing stolen identity information for an above-the-counter paycheck, rather than sitting outside home depot to work in someone's yard all day for 20-100 bucks a day. I'm not denying that many illegals do work for below-the-counter, tax-free pay; rather arguing that the many also work for a regular paycheck from which taxes and government service fees are deducted. Thus, they pay into the system. There are also many that are hired for agricultural labor and paid under the table. These are generally quite organized (ie, Julio Caesar Chavez's movement in the 80's for amnesty). Also, after I returned to work I told my employer that we shouldn't purchase from this company anymore, and they concurred. We now purchase the same materials from a company who allows us to audit their employee records.

I have to add something to my post or I wouldn't be very honest. I have used these men many times, and they are always respectful, honest and very hard working. They have sat at my table with me for lunch and helped me when they didn't have to. I guess this is off topic, but it wouldn't be fair if I didn't say this.

I don't think anyone here is arguing they're bad people, and I appreciate your honesty. I have never hired an illegal immigrant for any work whatsoever. And I'm a damned crazy loony liberal who does see what Arizona did as racist. That said, I refuse to financially support illegal immigration if I can help it, and think it's a problem that will never be solved. If you want them out of the country, stop paying them to be here. That is the only deterrent. I'm honestly convinced that border security is virtually impossible in this country, and people who want to get over here will always find a way. When the money flow dries up, they will stop coming. This is evidenced by the recent drop in illegal immigrants crossing the border because of the recession and lack of jobs: http://www.ilw.com/articles/2010,0426-chishti.shtm

My final point, hopefully to put things into a bit of perspective: It wasn't too long ago that Protestant Americans were trying to boot out Italian and Irish immigrants simply because they were Catholic. They argued that these non-protestants were primarily criminals, and a drain on society. After that, it was the Eastern Europeans trying to escape the soviet dictatorial regimes. The way I see it, the immigration debate has been extant in this country since its inception, the arguments have never changed, but the ethnicities targeted has. This country has the ironic tradition of being wary of foreign immigrants despite it being made up primarily of foreign immigrants. That's not who I am and the history of the immigration debate in this country makes it hard for me to jump on the band wagon this time around. The majority will always ***** about the minority until the minority is accepted as part of the majority.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top