Arcadia deep heat projector

Trevor Ostrander

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I have recently purchased the Arcadia deep heat projector bulbs. They produce no light and are said to produce a broad infrared spectrum that other bulbs can't do and mimics the sun. Has anyone else used these as a heat source? IF so what are your experiences with them? My hatchings seem to prefer it when given an option between it and another basking area at the same temperature.
 

method89

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I'm currently using for ambient heat. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. I'm not necessarily sure I'm using it correctly. My hatchling tends to stay on the basking side of his enclosure, which is just a 65w flood light.
 

Trevor Ostrander

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I'm currently using for ambient heat. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. I'm not necessarily sure I'm using it correctly. My hatchling tends to stay on the basking side of his enclosure, which is just a 65w flood light.
No I think your fine with that also. From what I've read it will heat the objects around it and the objects will radiate infrared C I believe (don't quote me) which will warm the air around the enclosure. So one of the positives is it can be used at night to provide heat without disturbing the day/night cycle. I have just been trying it as a basking bulb along with Arcadia 12% UVB fluorescent lights during the day.
 

method89

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Are you using the 50w or 80w? How far from the substrate is your light? What is your basking temp?
 

Trevor Ostrander

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I’m using then 50w. I adjusted it so the basking area is at 95 degrees. I don’t know the height. I just adjust for temp.
 

wellington

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I'm currently using for ambient heat. I've only had it for about 2 weeks. I'm not necessarily sure I'm using it correctly. My hatchling tends to stay on the basking side of his enclosure, which is just a 65w flood light.
I have noticed with hatchlings and adults that they tend to go where the light is to bask. In the wild they would search out the sun to bask and not the shade of a tree. So given the choice most will go to the light to bask.
 

Trevor Ostrander

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Agreed the bright light in the wild would be a good indicator of also where the heat is. That is why I place the Arcadia deep Heat projector near a bright light source. Also that (12% uvb bulb) gives them uvb. I too have noticed if I place a brighter basking light in the enclosure they will go under that even if the temperature is a little cooler
 

Markw84

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I am not currently in favor of this type of heating, especially for young tortoises. I believe it is the IR-A that is most damaging to new keratin and contributes to pyramiding.

There are 2 very respected reptile lighting experts who do promote the use of IR-A and IR-B over IR-C in reptile lighting - Dr Francis Baines and Roman Muryn. I do not agree with some of their very primary assertions. When IR-A is said to be deeper heating, I feel they are confusing penetration with absorption. In the much more researched and established sauna and medical industries, IR-C is used almost exclusively as the best deep-heating method. IR-A is deemed too damaging to the skin and IR-C can heat much more safely. Extended exposure to IR-A is quite damaging to the skin.

Our tortoises as babies and juveniles, when growing and still ossifying bones, are quite selective about basking. As mentioned in posts above, light is a key trigger that "tells" the tortoise where to bask and where to avoid excess heat. When we put this heat projector as the heat source - They are constantly bombarded with IR-A with no light trigger to tell them to get out of the "sun". Even with their basking zone, I am trying to deliberately minimize IR-A. This has created by far the best results in tortoise health as I can judge and certainly for pyramiding prevention.
 

method89

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Thank you @Markw84 logical and concise reason/explanation why not to use them as basking light. What are your thoughts on using them for ambient heat? I'm using it keep the temps on the cool side @80. It sounds like I should eliminate it completely but I would like to hear your thoughts.
 

Markw84

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Thank you @Markw84 logical and concise reason/explanation why not to use them as basking light. What are your thoughts on using them for ambient heat? I'm using it keep the temps on the cool side @80. It sounds like I should eliminate it completely but I would like to hear your thoughts.
I personally would not use it at all, especially for ambient heat. Bombarding a tortoise constantly with IR-A would be extremely undesirable! They cannot see any light, so no reflex to get out of the IR-A exposure. Putting a developing/growing tortoise shell under constant IR-A exposure cannot be good.

One of the hazards of IR-A I have seen to humans is since it does not put out visible light - there is not reflex to look away. But our eyes' lens can still focus IR-A rays and can lead to severe eye damage.
 

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I am not currently in favor of this type of heating, especially for young tortoises. I believe it is the IR-A that is most damaging to new keratin and contributes to pyramiding.

There are 2 very respected reptile lighting experts who do promote the use of IR-A and IR-B over IR-C in reptile lighting - Dr Francis Baines and Roman Muryn. I do not agree with some of their very primary assertions. When IR-A is said to be deeper heating, I feel they are confusing penetration with absorption. In the much more researched and established sauna and medical industries, IR-C is used almost exclusively as the best deep-heating method. IR-A is deemed too damaging to the skin and IR-C can heat much more safely. Extended exposure to IR-A is quite damaging to the skin.

Our tortoises as babies and juveniles, when growing and still ossifying bones, are quite selective about basking. As mentioned in posts above, light is a key trigger that "tells" the tortoise where to bask and where to avoid excess heat. When we put this heat projector as the heat source - They are constantly bombarded with IR-A with no light trigger to tell them to get out of the "sun". Even with their basking zone, I am trying to deliberately minimize IR-A. This has created by far the best results in tortoise health as I can judge and certainly for pyramiding prevention.
What type of heating devices emit IR-C?
 

Markw84

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What type of heating devices emit IR-C?
Any easy way to think about it is - the lower the heat of the source - the longer the wavelength.
To emit visible light the filament of an incadescent light is about 4000°-5000° = visible light and IR-A
The deep heat projector here, probably is about 1500°-2000° = IR-A and some IR-B
A ceramic Heat Emitter operates about 400°-500° = far IR-B and mostly IR-C
A radiant heat panel operates about 100°-110° = IR-C
Your body emits IR-C
 

Kapidolo Farms

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As well said as it can be. It's that penetration versus absorption that makes Marks narrative make sense. I have followed those two respected folks, and I think this is an area where they have gone astray.

I am not currently in favor of this type of heating, especially for young tortoises. I believe it is the IR-A that is most damaging to new keratin and contributes to pyramiding.

There are 2 very respected reptile lighting experts who do promote the use of IR-A and IR-B over IR-C in reptile lighting - Dr Francis Baines and Roman Muryn. I do not agree with some of their very primary assertions. When IR-A is said to be deeper heating, I feel they are confusing penetration with absorption. In the much more researched and established sauna and medical industries, IR-C is used almost exclusively as the best deep-heating method. IR-A is deemed too damaging to the skin and IR-C can heat much more safely. Extended exposure to IR-A is quite damaging to the skin.

Our tortoises as babies and juveniles, when growing and still ossifying bones, are quite selective about basking. As mentioned in posts above, light is a key trigger that "tells" the tortoise where to bask and where to avoid excess heat. When we put this heat projector as the heat source - They are constantly bombarded with IR-A with no light trigger to tell them to get out of the "sun". Even with their basking zone, I am trying to deliberately minimize IR-A. This has created by far the best results in tortoise health as I can judge and certainly for pyramiding prevention.
 

method89

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Replaced the DHP with a CHE today... Thanks for the in depth explanation.
 

Trevor Ostrander

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Any easy way to think about it is - the lower the heat of the source - the longer the wavelength.
To emit visible light the filament of an incadescent light is about 4000°-5000° = visible light and IR-A
The deep heat projector here, probably is about 1500°-2000° = IR-A and some IR-B
A ceramic Heat Emitter operates about 400°-500° = far IR-B and mostly IR-C
A radiant heat panel operates about 100°-110° = IR-C
Your body emits IR-C
Mark thank you for your response. I never thought this thread would have gotten so interesting. I have alway tried to steer away from incandescent, mercury vapor bulbs, halogen etc. Before I switched to the deep heat emitter I was using radiant heat panels or ceramic heat emitters. I was struggling with providing enough heat and also not having them block the light from my UVB fluorescent fixtures when using radiant heat panels. I thought this deep heat emitter would solve all my problems. Apparently not. So I have a couple questions. First ignoring all other factors the most IR-C with the least IR-A and IR-B is the radiant heat panels followed by ceramic heat emitters correct? From what I am reading from your post the Deep heat emitters have less IR-A than incandescent lights correct? Where do the other heat lights fall? ie halogen, Mercury vapor bulbs?
What do you personally use for your basking area? Do you use radiant heat panels, or ceramic heat emitters? I just don't see how I can squeeze a radiant heat panel and fluorescent lights above my hatchling enclosure. I have turned off the deep heat emitter and will be switching to the ceramic emitters tonight.
 

Markw84

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I must add to this discussion that I am not saying that NIR or IR-A is bad. There are healthful benefits to IR-A and it is being used more and more for some therapies. But in all cases it must be controlled in its intensity and duration. Most touted benefits are from studies of solar (natural) exposure to IR-A. That is also water filtered by our atmosphere. When we use bulbs or other sources to produce IR-A it is not the same and it often is of much greater intensity. Putting one over our tortoise where it cannot get away, or even worse, have it not associated with light, is not a good practice in my opinion.

I do use CHE's and radiant heat panels for overall heat in the enclosure. I do add some IR-A with the incandescent flood bulb of limited wattage I use for basking. But that IR-A is produced along with visible light and kept at a reasonable intensity with the low wattage. I do not like MVBs for this reason. They emit an extreme amount of IR-A as they ru so hot. So in addition to overheating an enclosure, they put out an unnaturally high intensity of IR-A in comparison to the overall output.
 

method89

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@Trevor Ostrander Thanks for starting this post... I thought I was on the cutting edge of tortoise husbandry, lol. I'm glad I was able to learn from and correct my mistakes quickly. Also, I saw your posts on Fauna. nice looking torts! Do you only breed the Russians and Greeks or do you have other species as well?
 

Markw84

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Mark thank you for your response. I never thought this thread would have gotten so interesting. I have alway tried to steer away from incandescent, mercury vapor bulbs, halogen etc. Before I switched to the deep heat emitter I was using radiant heat panels or ceramic heat emitters. I was struggling with providing enough heat and also not having them block the light from my UVB fluorescent fixtures when using radiant heat panels. I thought this deep heat emitter would solve all my problems. Apparently not. So I have a couple questions. First ignoring all other factors the most IR-C with the least IR-A and IR-B is the radiant heat panels followed by ceramic heat emitters correct? From what I am reading from your post the Deep heat emitters have less IR-A than incandescent lights correct? Where do the other heat lights fall? ie halogen, Mercury vapor bulbs?
What do you personally use for your basking area? Do you use radiant heat panels, or ceramic heat emitters? I just don't see how I can squeeze a radiant heat panel and fluorescent lights above my hatchling enclosure. I have turned off the deep heat emitter and will be switching to the ceramic emitters tonight.
We posted at the same time. I think I answered most of this in that post.
The deep heat projector is designed to put out only IR-A and IR-B. So it is burning at a heat that generates those wavelengths. Because that is the great percentage of its emission, it would be putting out substantially more IR-A than an incandescent of the same wattage. Well over 1/2 of the "light" from an incadescent is IR, and much less than 1/2 is visible light. Both mercury vapor and halogen are the same, but burn much hotter - so produce a much greater intensity.

If you are really interested here are the spectral graphs for comparison. (Probably TMI for many!)

Visible light is 400-650nm
IR-A is 700-1400nm
IR-B is 1400-3000nm
IR-C is 3000nm-1mm

Spectrum of Incandescent.jpg
Here is a spectrum from a CHE
spectrum of CHE.jpg

Spectrum of MVB.jpg

This is a halogen bulb:
Spectrum Halogen bulb.jpg
 
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Viola B

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Thank you all for this very interesting discussion on lighting. A big thank to Markw84 for all the wonderful information on lighting. I have learned a lot.
This forum is wonderful!
 

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