Anyone know what's going on here?

[laney]

Little yoshi is finally growing
My question is about his scutes at the back. The centre one seems to be kind of stuck and it looks like it is growing underneath the surface of the other scutes that were a little lumpy when I got him. Does anyone know why this is happening? Is it something that will sort itself or need keeping an eye on? Although he is not a hatchling he is around 20months I'm still soaking him everyday because he is tiny.

 

[yagyujubei]

I believe he needs more protein in his diet.

 

[Yvonne G]

You can try rubbing the 'stuck' part with a Q-tip dipped in either olive oil or mineral oil a couple times a day. Wipe off the excess oil.

 

[Tom]

I believe he needs more protein in his diet.

This theory interests me because Richard Fife once told me he thinks most tortoises are lacking enough protein in their diet, due to the pyramiding myth about protein. Would you elaborate a bit more for us?


Laney, Will you tell us a bit about your diet, substrate, humidity levels, calcium supplementation routine, etc? Does he burrow into his damp substrate? Does he have a humid hide? Do you ever feed any legumes like peas, green beans, alfalfa or clover?

I have seen that sort of growth anomaly before, but I do not know what causes it.

 

[Baoh]

Agreed with yagyujubei.

 

[lynnedit]

I wouldn't think that a Med tortoise needs more protein?
Massaging the scute lines with a toothbrush and oil is a great suggestion.

Laney, I know his shell had this appearance when you got him, but Tom is right; more information about his enclosure, and does he get outside time in the summer?

I have seen one reference that being under focused basking lights can heat up parts of the shell and contribute to stuck scutes (kind of a long thread, but the idea is that this kind of growth doesn't occur in the wild).
http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/phpbb3_live/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8079

 

[yagyujubei]

Well, the way I see it, protein is essential for growth. This particular "stuck scute" problem is a lack of growth in only certain areas. I had a smaller babcocki that had this on a couple of vertebral scutes when I got it. After about four or five month eating mazuri, the non-growing areas resumed normal growth as well - These were places that hadn't grown in several years. I know that a lot of people believe in the "oil the shell" remedy, but personally, I cannot fathom how oil on the keratin will have any effect whatsoever on bone growth. I have always suspected some sort of lacking nutrient in the diet, a trace mineral or something, but I really believe that a low protein diet is to blame.

I believe he needs more protein in his diet.

This theory interests me because Richard Fife once told me he thinks most tortoises are lacking enough protein in their diet, due to the pyramiding myth about protein. Would you elaborate a bit more for us?


Laney, Will you tell us a bit about your diet, substrate, humidity levels, calcium supplementation routine, etc? Does he burrow into his damp substrate? Does he have a humid hide? Do you ever feed any legumes like peas, green beans, alfalfa or clover?

I have seen that sort of growth anomaly before, but I do not know what causes it.

 

[lynnedit]

Good outcome for you! Of course, you also changed other conditions for the tortoise; lighting, substrate, etc. So the diet may have helped, or as part of a variety of improvements.

I have heard the theory of 'massaging' the scutes from other keepers who have been involved in rescue for >20 years.
The oil doesn't directly 'cure' the stuck scute, it is just part of the massage/loosening of the scute.
Certainly wont' hurt.

 

[yagyujubei]

Actually "stuck scute" is a misnomer. They aren't stuck together at all. One scute simply butts into the surrounding scutes. If the underlying bone doesn't grow the scute responds accordingly. If only one side of the scute grows, it directs the scute in one direction only, and it wiil overlay surrounding scutes on the opposite sides.

 

[lynnedit]

Sure, 'stuck scute' is a nickname.

Still doesn't explain to me why it doesn't happen in the wild.
Probably multifactorial.

 

[Baoh]

Actually "stuck scute" is a misnomer. They aren't stuck together at all. One scute simply butts into the surrounding scutes. If the underlying bone doesn't grow the scute responds accordingly. If only one side of the scute grows, it directs the scute in one direction only, and it wiil overlay surrounding scutes on the opposite sides.

Exactly.

 

[lynnedit]

That really is an excellent explanation, Dennis. I appreciate it and I am sure the OP does as well.

Still, having been in the medical field for >30 years, I do know that some treatments 'work', even though there isn't a scientific explanation. So, if experienced keeper recommend them, I am inclined to follow their suggestions!

 

[yagyujubei]

Well, thank you. Again, it's just an idea of mine. what I am convinced of is that mazuri was the key. I'll get some pics up.

That really is an excellent explanation, Dennis. I appreciate it and I am sure the OP does as well.

Still, having been in the medical field for >30 years, I do know that some treatments 'work', even though there isn't a scientific explanation. So, if experienced keeper recommend them, I am inclined to follow their suggestions!

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Here are a couple of pictures of the babcocki I used to have, and you can clearly see the resumption of normal growth. You can see in the first pic that the front seven scutes are growing erratically. The next two pics are about six or seven months later.

 

[laney]

You can try rubbing the 'stuck' part with a Q-tip dipped in either olive oil or mineral oil a couple times a day. Wipe off the excess oil.

Thanks I will try this

It's weird because its like one scute is slightly lower so the new growth is going inline with that one and actually growing underneath the edges of a couple of scutes at the side. The pics don't show it that well but if you zoom into them hopefully it will show the growth lines in the area so part of the flatter area is new growth of the scutes at the side (if that makes sense?)

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I believe he needs more protein in his diet.

This theory interests me because Richard Fife once told me he thinks most tortoises are lacking enough protein in their diet, due to the pyramiding myth about protein. Would you elaborate a bit more for us?


Laney, Will you tell us a bit about your diet, substrate, humidity levels, calcium supplementation routine, etc? Does he burrow into his damp substrate? Does he have a humid hide? Do you ever feed any legumes like peas, green beans, alfalfa or clover?

I have seen that sort of growth anomaly before, but I do not know what causes it.

Diet needs to be improved, I do struggle to get things other than what I'm using, I'm not sure if many things go by different names here or if there is poor selection. At the moment they get spring mix, kale, dandelions, pre alpin (100% weeds,flowers and grasses), nutrazu (uk mazuri), 'grow your own leaves' trays planted in enclosures, geraniums and spider plants planted (don't bother nibbling them though), and patches of mixed weed seeds growing (can't remember everything in them ATM). Yoshi does eat the mazuri but only when I messily hand feed him it lol so I don't do that as often as I could.
Humidity is usually between 30-50% there seems to be so much mixed info on this for Russians! I soak him everyday to make sure he is hydrated.
He does not have a humid hide, it is something I have thought about making for him. If I was to make one at what age/size should I remove it? And how do they work with the night temp drop for staying warm?
I haven't fed peas or green beans as I thought they weren't good, there is clover in amongst the mixed weeds he has growing.

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I wouldn't think that a Med tortoise needs more protein?
Massaging the scute lines with a toothbrush and oil is a great suggestion.

Laney, I know his shell had this appearance when you got him, but Tom is right; more information about his enclosure, and does he get outside time in the summer?

I have seen one reference that being under focused basking lights can heat up parts of the shell and contribute to stuck scutes (kind of a long thread, but the idea is that this kind of growth doesn't occur in the wild).
http://www.tortoisetrustforum.org/phpbb3_live/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8079

Sorry I have a terrible memory so doing these one by one.
He gets out for a few hours on nice days but they are not that frequent unfortunately. In their enclosures they have UVB strip bulbs but was thinking of replacing their heat bulbs for MVBs as well, do you think that would be ok or would it be too much? Their enclosures are quite large so I was thinking that if I do both at least I know they are getting some.
I will have a look at that link, thanks.

---

Well, the way I see it, protein is essential for growth. This particular "stuck scute" problem is a lack of growth in only certain areas. I had a smaller babcocki that had this on a couple of vertebral scutes when I got it. After about four or five month eating mazuri, the non-growing areas resumed normal growth as well - These were places that hadn't grown in several years. I know that a lot of people believe in the "oil the shell" remedy, but personally, I cannot fathom how oil on the keratin will have any effect whatsoever on bone growth. I have always suspected some sort of lacking nutrient in the diet, a trace mineral or something, but I really believe that a low protein diet is to blame.

I believe he needs more protein in his diet.

I don't mind trying both ways at least one or the other could help. So do you think if I feed him the mazuri more regularly that would help? I didn't know I had to think about protein.
Thanks

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Actually "stuck scute" is a misnomer. They aren't stuck together at all. One scute simply butts into the surrounding scutes. If the underlying bone doesn't grow the scute responds accordingly. If only one side of the scute grows, it directs the scute in one direction only, and it wiil overlay surrounding scutes on the opposite sides.

Thanks that is interesting.
It sounds like what is happening by looking at the pics but its different (maybe means the same thing IDK I'm still learning so correct me) but rather than "it will overlay surrounding scutes on the opposite sides." It is underlaying. The raised overhanging bits are not new the growth growing under them is?!

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[mainey34]

Well, thank you. Again, it's just an idea of mine. what I am convinced of is that mazuri was the key. I'll get some pics up.

That really is an excellent explanation, Dennis. I appreciate it and I am sure the OP does as well.

Still, having been in the medical field for >30 years, I do know that some treatments 'work', even though there isn't a scientific explanation. So, if experienced keeper recommend them, I am inclined to follow their suggestions!

---

Here are a couple of pictures of the babcocki I used to have, and you can clearly see the resumption of normal growth. You can see in the first pic that the front seven scutes are growing erratically. The next two pics are about six or seven months later.

---

I absolutely 100% agree with this theory. My sulcata had the exact same issues in the top 3 secutes. When adding protien to her diet, i also keep her outdoors. I noticed a big change. They all are growing. Unfortunately i dont have a pic of before

 

[Yvonne G]

This is what's so great about all of us belonging to a Forum such as this. We all learn new things and ideas. And just because "an experienced keeper recommended" a certain procedure, doesn't meant that there might not be any other way to handle the problem. We all (including me) learn and grow, if we'll just read and listen with an open mind.

 

[lynnedit]

That is what is great about this forum. And it is one of many good sources.

Actually, it should have read 'experienced keeperS'. I have heard from more than one source about massaging the scutes to promote healthier growth. Again, it doesn't make sense, but there you are.

I also like the idea of adding Mazuri, very educational. Maybe Laney knows about Yoshi's previous diet, but I am sure it is more weed based now.
We are always promoting outside time for tortoises her on TFO, and that has got to be far better than relying solely on light bulbs with their hot spots. Harder to do in Scotland, but with shelters it can be achieved.

Laney, do you know much about Yoshi's conditions before you got him? So glad you are soaking him, too!

 

[laney]

Ok so today I gave yoshi mazuri by hand, little piggy was loving it and ate two nuggets just bigger than his head and that was after he had ate his normal plate full.
He then had his usual soak and towel massage (he loves that lol) before I applied a little oil with a brush to the affected area.
I will continue with this routine for a while and see how it goes and will let you all know.
Thanks for the suggestions and advice. X

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Just noticed in the "show us your Russian tortoises" thread an older tort that looks like its had the same thing happening when it was younger, same place too.
I've copied the pic in here to show you, it is AlanRF's photo (hope you don't mind Alan)

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Seeing that against the pic of yoshi it is remarkably similar

 

[lynnedit]

You are right! And I was out with my tortoises just now and noticed one older female with the same pattern toward the top back of the shell (history of poor conditions).
However, she won't eat Mazuri, but she eats mostly weeds (including clover), kale and Optunia a couple of times per week.

Sounds like Yoshi is doing very well!