Any greens choices high in calcium AND low in oxalates???

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Madkins007

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egyptiandan said:
(snip)Say you were being good and making a salad with Romaine, Dandelion, Opuntia, Plantains and Pansy flowers. Say you did this every day for a week. You are feeding a variety, but your tortoise may just be mostly eating the Dandelion out of the mix. So actually your feeding Dandelion 7 days and not actually a varied diet. This is where the problem comes in with feeding foods with oxalic acid, i.e. feeding it in a salad every day.
:D
Danny

LOL! I know what you are saying, but I rarely have that problem. Mine usually eat down to the plate!

I can also go ya one better on the superfood- I ground up some Timothy hay cubes for rabbits into coarse fibers, then shook that with the calcium powder and a crushed multivitamin, and offer a decent pinch on each salad. Fiber and calcium. Now I just have to get some vitamin D drops!

Torty Mom said:
I was under the assumption that green beans were NOT good to feed? They are just a tad different than dandelion.

Does anyone feed their CDT's green beans?

Lisa's Tort Elliott LOVES green beans, but she was NOT going to feed them anymore as she had heard they were bad for him!

Green beans are the immature beans and you are feeding the pad as well, so they are not quite as 'beany' as other legumes. In fact, 100g of gren beans and snap peas only have about 2g of protein in them compared to the 35g in peas (which have little calcium and a terrible ratio.)
 

Madkins007

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Reptiles need a certain amount of calcium a day- the best estimate is 1.8 to 3mg of calcium in every Calorie (or kilocalorie) we feed them (Mader, "Reptile Medicine and Surgery). As with most other nutrients, going too high or low past the 'golden zone' can be harmful.

I will be the first to admit that a dosage of 1.8 to 3mg/kcal is a pain in the neck, but lets see if we can figure this out.

The calorie target for an inactive reptile is weight in kilograms to the 0.75th power, times 32 (or WTkg^0.75 x 32 = BMR (Basal Metabolic Rate) (Also from Mader). We generally give them 1.5 to 2 times the BMR for an active or growing animal.

So... in the chart to follow, we will have the weight, the BMRx2, and the target dose of calcium (I'm using 2.25mg/kcal as a mid-range target).

Weight - BMRx2 - Calcium dose (mg)
100g/4oz - 12 - 28.5mg
500g/1lb - 16 - 36mg
1kg/2lb - 54 - 121mg
5kg/11lb - 214 - 452mg

This is a lot of guessing, but I think it shows a pretty realistic picture. 100g (about 3.5 ounces, or about 2 cups) of Turnip Greens (170mg/100g of food) has more calcium than a 2lb tortoise needs in a day... assuming the greens actually have that much available calcium in them. On the other hand, a full 100g of Boston lettuce is only 35mg/100g of food. Will your 2lb tortoise eat 8 full cups of lettuce?

This is beginning to sound like a bad cereal commercial, sorry! Lets make this simpler.

In the Tortoise Library diet page, I offer a simplified list of great, good, and OK foods, based in the nutritional levels. I suggest offering 2 kinds of greens and a fruit (for tortoises) a week- combining either 2 goods, or a great and an OK. You can alternate by week if you want, I just prefer a little more variety during the week. This should keep you in the ballpark with calcium... especially if you add a pinch of supplement once in a while. (1 good 'pinch' is about 1/16th of a teaspoon and a whopping 360 milligrams, so don't overdo it!)

Remember the article on vitamin D dosages? That dosage of D will metabolize the amount of calcium listed above. If you throw a LOT more calcium at the animal, the excess will screw up the system- even if you boost the vitamin D to compensate.

Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!
 

Balboa

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Snip

Madkins007 said:
Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!

LOL thanks Mark. It actually amazes me that I haven't gotten that exact yet. A good scale for my torts has been on my shopping list for too long now.

The trouble as I see it, is, as you know we have no way of truly knowing how much bio-available calcium there is in anything we feed the torts. It almost seems to me I should count on near zero calcium in the diet and suplement accordingly, but then I worry about over doing the calcium and getting stones like Mary Ann is dealing with.

I wonder how tough it is to measure the calcium and oxalate content of food, if it could be done on an occasional sampling basis at home. Time for more research, and maybe contacting a doctor of chemistry friend of mine, LOL

I plan on growing alot of my own tortoise food at home this spring, and I will amend the soil accordingly, but that does little to help the "average" keeper.
 

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I think we are forgetting about grass/hay. I feed 80% grass/hay and 20% of other greens/weeds. I also use grape leaves and cactus but not so much in the winter. If it were not for hay and Mazuri my torts would cost me $$$ in winter. I scrape cuttlebone over moist greens 2-3 times a week and leave one in the pens so they can help themselves. This post has lots of great info but so much that it makes my head spin,LOL. Maybe someday someone will figure it all out.
 

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Grass and hay is a very good point, and I really never have looked into it, but I believe grasses are considered low in oxalates (and calcium for that matter).

This would imply that what I'm talking about is a lesser issue to grassland species.

My trouble is that I keep redfoots, so grasses are a very small part of their diet and it looks to me like the primary part of their diet may be too high in calcium and/or oxalates. I may just need to start feeding them more grass, if I can get them to take it.
 

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Balboa said:
Snip

Madkins007 said:
Or, to put it as simply as I can, it is about a BALANCED, varied diet. Don't toss the charts quite yet, Balboa!

LOL thanks Mark. It actually amazes me that I haven't gotten that exact yet. A good scale for my torts has been on my shopping list for too long now.

The trouble as I see it, is, as you know we have no way of truly knowing how much bio-available calcium there is in anything we feed the torts. It almost seems to me I should count on near zero calcium in the diet and suplement accordingly, but then I worry about over doing the calcium and getting stones like Mary Ann is dealing with.

I wonder how tough it is to measure the calcium and oxalate content of food, if it could be done on an occasional sampling basis at home. Time for more research, and maybe contacting a doctor of chemistry friend of mine, LOL

I plan on growing alot of my own tortoise food at home this spring, and I will amend the soil accordingly, but that does little to help the "average" keeper.

Yeah, but you also need to remember that people have kept AND BRED Red-foots for a lot of generations on diets worse than we are discussing. this is, as we have discussed before, a species that specializes in maximizing bad food options. Balance, young Jedi (or, for us old Kung Fu fans, 'Grasshopper').

MY ideal goal would be to find a way to tag or identify food options to make a shopper-friendly formula- like the points system of Weight Watchers or something.
 

Balboa

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Ahhh sensei,

but we can always strive to acheive better :)
 

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I've been studying all this stuff since the late 80's. It is still the same contradictory, confusing info. I feed a variety of all of the above. I grow a lot of my own stuff and harvest whatever else I can throughout the year. Some of my favorites: Grape leaves, opuntia fruit and pads, whatever weeds and wild grasses are sprouting, mulberry leaves and roses.

I've been using spring mix lately for my horde of babies, but I'm really not a fan of most grocery store stuff. I use it to round out the other stuff and add some variety.
 

SILVERSTAR

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YES TORTY MOM I DO,i grow opuntia cactus(3varietys)hibiscus(california variety)alfalfa,wheatgrass,pumkin plants,echavaria,i think thats about it at the moment.
 

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We were eating a 'big salad' for supper and I got to thinking about this thread. You know most of the stuff applies to human food as well- and yet very few doctors or nutritionists would suggest avoiding oxalates, like spinach, even for calcium-starved pregnant women.

In fact, I would bet most of the people here never heard of oxalates, goiterogenic compounds, purines, etc. before they got into feeding reptiles, then it suddenly becomes this magical, complicated stuff.
 

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True! but Kidney stones are quite common

http://www.bing.com/health/article/mayo-125674/Kidney-stones?q=kidney+stones&qpvt=kidney+stones

Its just that we can talk about what we're feeling. Torts have a tougher time with that :)

I originally started to post this info in the Uric Acid thread, but decided to post it here instead.

For Prevention of Kidney Stones in Humans, according to the Mayo Clinic:

1. DRINK LOTS OF WATER (sound familiar, huh, I'm as guilty as any tort on this one)
2. Eat Fewer Oxalate rich foods. (too bad most of those are "really good for us")
3. Choose a diet low in salt and ANIMAL PROTEIN
4. Continue eating calcium-rich foods, but use caution with calcium supplements.

They've linked an increase risk of stones to calcium supplements. hmmmmmm.
There was also a note in there about vitamin D rich diets inducing stones.

This all sounds very familiar.
Dang its a wonder I don't have stones (knock on wood), and it'd be a wonder if I'm not giving them to my torts. :)
 

Tom

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All these things are valid points and valid concerns. However, for twenty years, I've fed all my torts of various species all the things mentioned above and had zero problems. Well, except for pyramiding, but I think we can finally say that has little, if anything, to do with diet.

I worry that info like this thread will confuse and bewilder anyone with less experience than an "expert". I found it very difficult to wade through this kind of thing when I was starting out. I usually just took the advice of someone who had been doing it successfully for many years and followed their example.

FOR THE NEWBIES: 1. Just feed a wide variety of ALL the stuff mentioned here in this thread. 2. Get them in the sun as much as possible, or under a MVB, if you have frozen winters. 3. Hydrate them well. I like daily soaks for babies, and several times a week for juvies. Also keep a shallow water bowl available at all times, even for "desert" species.
 

John

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This can be very confusing but I find it interesting,the info on this forum has helped me look at things a liitle closer,I've even adjusted my iguanas diet although my other two are very healthy in their old age. one thing caught my eye mushrooms how do they fit into a leopard torts diet,also moss or algae? one of my leopards will always go too the rocks under the down spout and eat the algae off them when their in the yard,the other two have not done this,not sure if i should let him eat it or not?
 

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While this thread has been an interesting read, I find myself asking the question-how likely would it be for the tortoise to be out in the wild and walk by a food source and think "Hmm, I'm pretty sure this one is high in oxalates, I should go find something else that's higher in calcium."? Probably not likely. I agree with Tom. Feed a wide variety, lots of sun, keep the babies hot, humid, and hydrated, and soak often. It's what I've been doing with my little one and I can see the growth in him since I got him and I can also see that the new growth is coming in smoother. Right now, sunshine is an issue because it's been raining so much. And even when it's been sunny, it's been too cold to take such a little one out.
 

Balboa

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Tom said:
I worry that info like this thread will confuse and bewilder anyone with less experience than an "expert". I found it very difficult to wade through this kind of thing when I was starting out. I usually just took the advice of someone who had been doing it successfully for many years and followed their example.

Wow Tom,
Maybe I need to start putting a disclaimer on certain threads.

"Experimental Hypothesizing and Thinking, Experts Only, Proceed With Caution"

I have to admit, this post did raise my hackles a bit, something I'm sure you didn't intend.

I believe its in my nature to prefer to think for myself, and look into the whys of everything we do.

"Just do it this way, because we say so" has never sat well with me, my Mom learned this early on, and recently disclosed this to me actually. She learned that even as a small child, if she explained to me calmly in a logical manner why I should or should not do something, my rebellion ended and I would calmly go along.

I need to realize I'm not normal in this regard. Most people want to be spoon fed and led like sheep. Easy answers, simple programs, right or wrong, black and white.

This is absolutely alien to me, and frankly makes my stomach turn. THINK FOR YOURSELVES DAMNIT ALL YOU LITTLE ROBOTS! lol

Tom, you've stated many times that following the experts all those years (at least for your sullies) was a misstake. Keep them dry, feed them little, is what they told you. You've figured out better now, and you did this by thinking for yourself.

Really I think that is the key to all this, HYDRATION. What we feed them matters little, as long as they are hydrated and can flush the excess from their bodies.

I'm also an extroverted thinker, and use this forum to help me flesh out ideas. This thread helped ME figure out that there is no such thing as a high calcium plant without oxalates and get it through my thick skull. The experts may have all known that already, but nobody stated that in a way that really got through to this sheep.

My apologies to anyone led astray by this thread.

Jenni and John, that is another area of debate. Mark has raised the question of "nutritional wisdom" in torts. Personally I am of the opinion that if presented with numerous options tortoises will tend to pick out what they need. Captivity can sometimes upset this as they become "addicted" to favorites, like a child to candy. There is no doubt in my mind that they can smell the nutrients, toxins, anti-nutrients or whatever in a leaf. Early on I didn't have dandelion ID down well, and included leaves from groundsel in with the dandelions. Rocky ate the dandelion and left the groundsel.

I really have no other explanation for why Rocky devoured her cuttlebone early on, but now only leaves it for an occasional nibble. Back then she showed a preference for "high calcium" greens and would literally gnaw on her cuttlebone to the point that I became concerned about her over wearing her beak. Nowadays she's backed off on that and eats a wider variety of greens as well.

Many other keepers have found that they can't trust their torts, and have to focus on an exclusive rotational diet to ensure adequate variety.
 

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Balboa- I COMPLETELY agree with your mom and how she'd explain things to you. It's exactly how my husband and I are raising our kids. I know torts in the wild pick an choose whaqt they want to eat and maybe from experience know what to choose and when. You absolutely have to think for yourself and be your own advocate. I learned this with my medical insurance for myself and my kids. Kaiser learned real quick that I could be a nasty thorn in their side. For example, when my daughter was first born and I took her in for her first shots, they wanted me to place her on a hard, cold, crinkly paper covered table so they could hold her down while they gave her the shots. I told them absolutely not. I would be holding her while they did the shots. They raised a stink and I held my ground. She was so tiny, there was no way I was not going to hold her. What I ended up doing was googling immunizations and found a professor in Michigan who had completed a study about the very issue of holding your child while they receive their shots. It completely verified everything I had told Kaiser. Kaiser's response at the time was "this is how it's always been done.". I called the professor and she sent me a complete copy of the study. I took it to Kinko's and ran off copies. The next time I had to take my daughter in for immunizations, I went prepared with several copies and handed them out. I basically told them that if I wasn't allowed to hold her, we'd change insurance to a company who actually put the patient first. Since then I think they must have flagged my family's file, because I never had another problem with my daughter and immunizations. When my son was born and only had to merely mention my stand and immediately they backed down and agreed.
So anyway, yes think for yourself. I can't go by what the "books" say, I'd much rather go by those who have experience with it and raising torts. There are so many on here that I trust. Yvonne, Maggie, Tom, Dean, just to mention a few.
 

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This is my nickel's worth...

1. We have a decent diet we can offer most common pet tortoises, mostly based on balance, variety, and proper offerings. We know this diet is reasonably effective at raising reasonably healthy torts, although in general we are not getting the longevity we would like to see if we were doing things perfectly.

2. The fact that we have a decent diet plan should not keep anyone interested in tortoise nutrition from working to improve it. That is how someone figured up that Chacos need cacti (and I am wondering if maybe Cherry-heads and Southern Red-foots do as well??)

3. Maybe we need a 'Theoretical Discussions' thread to post stuff like this in with a different tone than the Debatable Topics thread? At the very least, we should think about mentioning in our initial posts that this is based on research, experience, theory, or what more often. I know I am guilty of this a lot.
 

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Balboa, You are right. I certainly meant no offense. My point is that if someone like Mark or me or you cannot wade through all this conflicting info and come up with sound, practical answers, then how is a brand new person supposed to? I think its pretty obvious that I think for myself too, as you noted, I just want noobs to have a basic easy to understand plan to follow while they are sussing things out and thinking for themselves too.

Mark, I had not heard any complaints about a lack of longevity. Where are you getting the idea that our current torts are not living as long as they should? From where I'm sitting, it seems like my children's children might not have the answer to this before they die of old age. Even with all the pyramiding, dehydration and diet fallacies over the last 20 years, it still seems like they are all surviving for decades and still going strong...
 

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I understand where Tom is coming from, and he did not mean to insult.

I firmly believe that figuring out the "whys" when it comes to tortoise keeping is very important. But what you have to understand is that for a new keeper, TOO much information is overwhelming. Look at it this way-

You go to the pet store, and you buy this cute little 2" tortoise that the petstore tells you is a GREAT pet. They sell you a 20 gallon aquarium, a coil UV bulb, some rabbit pellets for bedding, and tell you that the only other thing your little tortoise needs is romaine lettuce once a day. You don't even have to give him water, just soak him once every two weeks or so, because he will get all the water he needs from his food.

Two days later you stumble across a website - The Tortoise Forum. You proudly introduce yourself and your new baby tortoise.

You find out that your new tortoise is going to grow to 24" and 150lbs, and you have very cold winters.

You find out that the bedding is all wrong, and you need to go spend money on new bedding.

You find out that your enclosure is too cold, because all you have is a coil UV bulb, and that the bulb can prove dangerous. Now you have to spend $40-80 on a MVB bulb.

You find out that your 20 gallon tank is way to small. Now you have to go spend more money on a tub or build a larger enclosure.

You find out that you need cuttlebone, and that romaine just isn't going to cut it.

You find out that you not only need a water dish, but you need to soak your tortoise every day and spray the enclosure and the tortoise's shell 3-4 times a day.

Suddenly, this cute easy pet has become a money sink and more work than you anticipated. You are feeling overwhelmed. What do you want to do at this point? DO you want to wade through a bunch of technical data to find out what kind of MVB, what kind of substrate, what kind of enclosure, and where to get the things you need, or, do you want experienced people to give you advice?

That was Tom's point. I found that out too. After several years of nutritional analysis and breakdowns being posted on the main diet page of my website, I realized that the question I was getting most often was, "Okay, I have all those nutritional information. Now tell me how to interpret it. What do these numbers MEAN?" What I found is that it was easy for me to wrap my head around it, but not so easy for others.

My point is - don't stop asking questions. It is important that we know "why." But some people just plain need help, support and advice, without the technicality.

Oh, and Mark - great idea. I am all for it.
 
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