Another Dog Story...

[Yvonne G]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Very sorry about your loss.
I have a tortoise and he roams in my 600 square meter garden and he has lived there for about 7 years. On the other hand, I have a adult golden retriever (they share the garden land) which ive had for about 6 years so the Bradley (tortoise) came first and they have always gotten along well. I guess this proves your theory about dogs and tortoises wrong but still. Bradley and Louie (my dog) probably have a 1 in a million friendship.
Anyways, My condolences for your loss.
Bye.

It just hasn't happened to you YET. Just give it time. Eventually you are going to be one of those who say, "My dog chewed my tortoise, but she never showed an interest in the tortoises in all the years we've had her."

 

[Tom]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

I guess this proves your theory about dogs and tortoises wrong but still.

First of all, I offered no theory. I just related what happened to a friend.

Secondly, almost everyone whose dog chewed up their tortoise thought that everything was fine and that their dog would never hurt their tortoise. That's how it happens.

Has there ever been a dog and a tortoise that shared a backyard without incident? Yes. Of course. But you seem to have missed the entire point of the story.

DON'T TAKE THE RISK. Leaving the two of them loose together and unsupervised is literally gambling with the tortoises life.

 

[nancykj]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

hey all..
just for another perspective on the dog vs tort (ie why they do not mix no exceptions) there are always exceptions

my german shepherd dog has been guarding my 2 desert tortoises for the past 9 1/2 years. her job is to alert me when they confront each other in the yard and start the head bobbing thing. both guys have their own enclosures, but i like to let them out in the whole yard when i am there to supervise. but, that might mean i am in the house. they are never out of their enclosures if i am no physically at the house. i always have the dog out in the yard with them to keep an eye on them. both are males. she lets me know, without fail, when they get too close to each other. with a very distinctive bark/yelp. In fact, she recognizes each by name, and will find them for me in the yard..where's ares? she finds ares. where's joxer? she finds joxer.
before my GSD, i had a great pyrennes who also zealously guarded the torts, and everything else in the yard .
before both of them, i had a collie/shepherd mix who also guarded and herded the torts, always very gently.
and not to forget my pugs...my first was with the torts her entire life of 14 years, and her only fault was that she would take the food out of their mouths. literally. and the torts were so patient with her.
my young pug, 2 years old, does the same thing. will take their food as they are eating it. and the tortoises tolerate it and just eat around her.
so, altho i agree with most of the posts that you must be extremely careful with the dog/tort exposure, i respectfully disagree that dogs and torts do not mix and there are no exceptions.

 

[Tom]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

One of our moderators added those parenthesized words. They are not mine. I wish they hadn't added them, but I was not asked.

However, your stories of good luck are not helpful for preventing tortoises from being chewed up by people's dogs who mistakenly believe that their dogs will behave like your dogs did.

I'm sure there are thousands of stories like yours of dogs and tortoise sharing a backyard without incident. There are also thousands of dead and maimed tortoises from people with good intentions who never imagined their dog would do such a thing. The point of the original post is to caution people to not risk unsupervised contact with dogs and tortoises EVER. By relating your stories here, you are basically encouraging the opposite. Do you really think the average person should just turn their dog loose in the yard with their tort and assume all will be okay? I don't. I think if you find a few tortoise vets and ask to see their "tortoises mauled by dogs" photos, you might change your tune. I've seen dozens of these photos and dozens of dead or mauled tortoises first hand too and let me tell you, it ain't cool.

Forgive me if my reply seems unkind. Preventing tortoises from being eaten alive means more to me than your feelings, or anyone else's feelings for that matter. I know that might sound harsh, but if you had ever held just one eviscerated, bloody, but still ALIVE tortoise in your hands, I don't think you'd go around telling people how its just fine to mix dogs and tortoises sometimes.

 

[mtdavis254817]

Re: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

I think the NO EXCEPTION rubs people the wrong way. Like people all dogs are different... There are dogs out there that won't hurt a tortoise. I'm not saying you should give them the chance to find out. I trust my pit bull with my torts but I still keep the electric fences on.. Hell I trust my kids with my torts but I still keep the electric fences on..

 

[wellington]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

I think too many people are taking offense. No one wants to think their dog could hurt another family member, or that their dog is vicious enough, or disobedient enough to hurt a tortoise. The thing is, it doesn't have to be a "dog attack". It's a dog "playing" with a ball that is now moving, dog is thinking its a toy or a game of some sort. The dog isn't intentionally hurting the tortoise, it's just picking up or chewing on a ball, that ball just happens to be your tortoise. All my animals live happy together. Dog, cat, bird, lizards, at one point, hedgehog, rats, hamster, tortoise. Never one bothering the other. Would I turn my back and walk to another room or get distracted, and not know where each one was, NO! 100% attention had to be on each animal. If I couldn't give 100%, they didn't get to be by each other. Would I promote this to anyone, NO! Most of the "dog attacks, bites or mauled" my tortoise, we have seen on here, the person just looked away for a second. It's just so much safer to not do it, period! Every dog, EVERY dog has a line it will cross.

 

[hunterk997]

Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

I think the NO EXCEPTION rubs people the wrong way. Like people all dogs are different... There are dogs out there that won't hurt a tortoise. I'm not saying you should give them the chance to find out. I trust my pit bull with my torts but I still keep the electric fences on.. Hell I trust my kids with my torts but I still keep the electric fences on..

I agree with the intended point of this thread. But this post is really funny! I couldn't help myself.

 

[nancykj]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

One of our moderators added those parenthesized words. They are not mine. I wish they hadn't added them, but I was not asked.

However, your stories of good luck are not helpful for preventing tortoises from being chewed up by people's dogs who mistakenly believe that their dogs will behave like your dogs did.

I'm sure there are thousands of stories like yours of dogs and tortoise sharing a backyard without incident. There are also thousands of dead and maimed tortoises from people with good intentions who never imagined their dog would do such a thing. The point of the original post is to caution people to not risk unsupervised contact with dogs and tortoises EVER. By relating your stories here, you are basically encouraging the opposite. Do you really think the average person should just turn their dog loose in the yard with their tort and assume all will be okay? I don't. I think if you find a few tortoise vets and ask to see their "tortoises mauled by dogs" photos, you might change your tune. I've seen dozens of these photos and dozens of dead or mauled tortoises first hand too and let me tell you, it ain't cool.

Forgive me if my reply seems unkind. Preventing tortoises from being eaten alive means more to me than your feelings, or anyone else's feelings for that matter. I know that might sound harsh, but if you had ever held just one eviscerated, bloody, but still ALIVE tortoise in your hands, I don't think you'd go around telling people how its just fine to mix dogs and tortoises sometimes.

hi tom! i was not intending that my "stories of good luck" would or would not be helpful to people who would mistakenly believe that their dogs would act as mine have, consistently, and across many breeds.
however, i respectfully feel you go way overboard in the no dog EVER thing.
i like to believe that most tort keepers are able to understand the distinction between dogs with a long known history of tort friendly behavior, and the neighbors dog. or the new dog. or the puppy.
i would worry that new tortoise keepers would read some of these posts, and get rid of their dogs.
and, that drama about eviscerated bloody, but still ALIVE tortoise, is just that, drama. of course it happens!.. and they get parasites and die and they get dehydrated and die and their burrows collapse and they die and they don't get enough calcium and they die and they flip on their backs and they die, and, oh yeah, they just die.
so, yeah! love your torts, watch them closely, monitor all interactions between them and family dogs. do not expose them to strange dogs, cats, raccoons, hippos, alligators, etc.

 

[Tom]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Again, I NEVER said "no dog EVER". I don't think that. Never said that. I have 30 dogs around my tortoises every day. I just don't leave them unsupervised.

Drama? Yes, I suppose it was very dramatic. Its EXTREMELY dramatic, and traumatic, every time it happens to all of the people involved.

Why on earth would you leap to someone getting rid of their dog? I never said, thought or implied that. "Keep your dog and your tortoise separate." Is a whole lot different than "Get rid of your dog." I don't want anyone to get rid of their dog. I do want everyone to keep their tortoise safe from their dog, and not fool themselves into thinking, "It can't happen here. Not with my sweet loving poochy poo."

And you are wrong about most tortoise keepers and their ability to distinguish good and bad dog behavior. Most of the tortoises that come in to vets offices all chewed up are brought in by people just like you who never though their lovely family dog would ever do such a thing. THAT is the point. ANY dog is capable of this, even yours. Mine too. If you wish to continue to gamble with your tortoises lives and think that your ability to read and train dogs exceeds everyone who has ever had their tortoise chewed up, I can't stop you. I however, will continue to advise people to keep their dogs away from their tortoises when they can't be there to directly supervise.

I mean you no insult, but I think this is a case of: You just haven't seen what I have seen yet. Your experience here seems to be your dogs in your backyard. I have been a career dog trainer for more than 20 years. I have seen thousands of dogs and situations in that time. Due to my hobbies, lifestyle and career, I also work, and am friends with, many veterinarians, so I get the benefit of their day to day experiences too. Because these people are my friends and they know of my obsession with all things tortoise, I get all sorts of tortoise calls and stories from them. This is why I told you above to talk to your vet and ask them about their tortoise and dog stories. Did you do that? It might really change your opinion on this matter. Ask your vet how many people told them that their dog "was fine with the tortoise for years" or said, "He/she's never done THAT before..."

 

[ascott]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

This is addressed to Tom;

Tom, I have to agree with the fact that dogs, as well as most other living creatures, can act within their own right when the moment hits.

If a person has not spent a great deal of time with a variety of breeds within their lifetime (not a few breeds, but several) and have not made it their passion to learn the look, the motion and the feeling in the air that a dog gives off without action, without notice, then they are not aware. I have worked with dogs for many years in my younger days P) and have never met a dog that at some point channels their primal drive....this does not mean a dog is bad, does not mean a dog is vicious, does not mean a dog is spiteful....but does mean a dog is a wonderful dog....they are equipped with tools that "can" make them lethal to a species that is not equal.

I have a son. My son has always been around a dog or dogs within the home. I taught the dogs when my son was infant to stay clear of him, without question and abruptly at times the reminder was offered---not cruel, but not slight. As my son grew and became mobile, the rules remained the same---my son, was off limits for play, for wrestle for mock handling---off limits. My son learned from the moment I spoke to him to never put his face in the face of a creature that possessed teeth....with the explanation that anything with teeth "can" bite even if they never do.

Now, with that being said. I would never leave my son in the company of an animal that can cause great bodily injury--no matter how much I adored, loved and nurtured that animal. For you see, my son can never be made whole again in the event a moment in time should occur that an animal behaves as one "can"...my son was no match for a mouth full of teeth and loads of years of evolutionary drive....I have nothing personal against any of the dogs in the house here...I love our two dogs--but I am fully aware that at a moment in time they can, with little notice, act as the animal they are. With this understanding, there has always been peace in the household...my son has a keen sense when a dog is silently on edge and can create clear space in the event one should do what a dog does....he is respectful of the "ability" of an animal without making it personal....

So, please understand---when it is said to not let an animal (in this case, a dog) be left with a tort--it is not because Tom does not have great respect for the species but likely because he is fully aware of the irreversible damage one can create in the proper moment...he has worked with many species of animals and I am sure has honed in his abilities to sense the quiet air of an animal that is very capable of causing damage---this does not mean he is offering empty words to scare...but rather a varied range of what can happen....Tom, if I have stated incorrectly, please do not be shy in correcting me

 

[Tom]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Angela, as usual you have a way with words. You elaborated upon and better illuminated my point very well. Thank you.

I know of a child whose face will forever bear the scars of her mothers carelessness/recklessness from exactly the situation you describe. The sad things is that this person has throughout the years argued with me and disagreed with me about this very topic. The dog was "fine" according to her. Well the dog was fine, until one day the dog wasn't fine.

The point of this discussion, the point of this whole thread, is to shorten this learning curve, so that people who have never had anything bad happen can hopefully learn from the experience of others who have had something bad happen without having to suffer the same consequences of those others.

If this is to be labeled "scare tactics" then so be it. I'm okay with that label. If my tactics, whatever they are labeled, prevent a disaster like the many that I have seen, I will have accomplished my goal. Really, what do I gain from engaging in this discussion? What do I gain from encouraging tortoise and dog owners to be cautious, or put a fence between the dogs and the tortoises? I'm not selling anything. I have no "company" that gives me a financial reward for swaying people one way or the other. Its all about the animals. I don't want to see anyone's tortoise chewed up, and I don't want to see anyone's dog looked upon in any unfavorable way because the dog was allowed to do what dogs do. That is it. Nothing more.

 

[nancykj]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Again, I NEVER said "no dog EVER". I don't think that. Never said that. I have 30 dogs around my tortoises every day. I just don't leave them unsupervised.

Drama? Yes, I suppose it was very dramatic. Its EXTREMELY dramatic, and traumatic, every time it happens to all of the people involved.

Why on earth would you leap to someone getting rid of their dog? I never said, thought or implied that. "Keep your dog and your tortoise separate." Is a whole lot different than "Get rid of your dog." I don't want anyone to get rid of their dog. I do want everyone to keep their tortoise safe from their dog, and not fool themselves into thinking, "It can't happen here. Not with my sweet loving poochy poo."

And you are wrong about most tortoise keepers and their ability to distinguish good and bad dog behavior. Most of the tortoises that come in to vets offices all chewed up are brought in by people just like you who never though their lovely family dog would ever do such a thing. THAT is the point. ANY dog is capable of this, even yours. Mine too. If you wish to continue to gamble with your tortoises lives and think that your ability to read and train dogs exceeds everyone who has ever had their tortoise chewed up, I can't stop you. I however, will continue to advise people to keep their dogs away from their tortoises when they can't be there to directly supervise.

I mean you no insult, but I think this is a case of: You just haven't seen what I have seen yet. Your experience here seems to be your dogs in your backyard. I have been a career dog trainer for more than 20 years. I have seen thousands of dogs and situations in that time. Due to my hobbies, lifestyle and career, I also work, and am friends with, many veterinarians, so I get the benefit of their day to day experiences too. Because these people are my friends and they know of my obsession with all things tortoise, I get all sorts of tortoise calls and stories from them. This is why I told you above to talk to your vet and ask them about their tortoise and dog stories. Did you do that? It might really change your opinion on this matter. Ask your vet how many people told them that their dog "was fine with the tortoise for years" or said, "He/she's never done THAT before..."

no insult at all taken tom. i am able to have a difference of opinion with you without hurt feelings. i do appreciate that you have alot of experience with dogs and tortoises and i enjoy your posts and your perspective

 

[stinax182]

Re: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

i actually have a story of this happening with a friends tort and a pet cat.

the cat was an 8 year old fixed female....she was very calm and wouldn't bother to catch a dying bird in front of her. the tortoise and cat had never had problems. i personally thought the cat didn't even see the tortoise as anything other than a moving rock, hardly turned a head at it. the cat had free run of the house except the tort room. until one day the owner was soaking the tort and left the door open and the cat attacked the tort in it's soaking bucket ): it wasn't seriously injured, but the cat did naw at it and didn't leave until the owner returned.


i also had a 10 year old pet raccoon i had hand raised from birth that had never hunted in it's life or even seen anything worth hunting that one day crawled to the top of a book case, knocked down my 10g aquarium and ate my aquatic turtles.


anything with a mouth and teeth can and will bite whether it be from instincts, survival or food. and anyone who thinks they know mother nature are fooling themselves and risking their pets. there's no opinion in that.

 

[wellington]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Just wanted this to pop up again, as some people just don't get it, or are know it alls in just a few months. With some new members, figured this would be a good time to have this up front again.

 

[sueb4653]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

I have to agree don't mix the two, I just got a dog and the first thing that happened was this...
before the dog

after the dog

it is just not worth the risk for such a simple fix..

 

[ecstasyrs90]

Re: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

This makes me sick to my stomach reading. One big reason I will never own a dog. My torts are way too important. Many people need to know dogs n tortoises and turtles do not mix, dogs more or less see them as chew toys or bones. So not worth it.

 

[Kele7710]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Hi 6 weeks a go my dog stole my 2 year old Hermann out of his tortoise table which is on a high stand, £500 later in vet bills my Stanley is doing great I caught my dog just in time didn't think it would be possible my dog could get that high I only had Stanley the tortoise 3 days when this happened, big big lesson learnt and am grateful for my tortoise specialist vet

 

[Aretino]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

DOGS AND TORTOISES SHOULD NEVER NEVER NEVER BE LEFT ALONE TOGETHER!!!!!!!!!!!!

I have two cats and was apprehensive about how they would react to the tortoise, fearing they would claw at her or bite, and perhaps harm her eyes. So I watched the interactions of cat and turtle very carefully the first year. When outdoors, the motion of Dinette in the grass would sometimes attract the attention of one of the cats, but one cautious sniff would inspire utter disinterest. After a year of observation, I am satisfied the cats now have no interest whatsoever in Dinette, and she feels the same about them. There is a ladder next to the tortarium which the small cat loves to sit atop, trolling for attention. It is easy for him to get into the tortarium from this ladder, something I have tried to discourage sternly, mostly out of fear that it will prove temping as a cat box, a really, really bad idea. But still, the little cat has trouble resisting the warmth, and I sometimes find him stretched out serenely, basking along with Dinette. They both ignore each other. I once found the small cat stretched out full length, sleeping with his head inside the hide. Dozing at the other side of the hide was Dinette. There have been no attempts to use the tortarium as a cat box. Dogs can't get into the yard, but I am apprehensive about raccoons and foxes during the part of the year when Dinette lives outdoors. For a while, I brought her in at night, but she has a good hide and is very adept at concealing herself, so she now sleeps out during warm weather, returning to the tortarium only when the weather cools. We recently had a mind-boggling rain event, receiving 17" of rain in about a week's time, causing severe flooding in some areas. Dinette spent the whole time in her tortarium, basking under the heat lamp.

 

[Tom]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Aretino, I would love to see pics of what you describe.

 

[Aretino]

RE: Another Dog Story (Why tortoises & dogs DO NOT MIX. No exceptions!)

Aretino, I would love to see pics of what you describe.

Here is Little hogging the heat/UV lamps. Unfortunately, he was not caught on camera with his head in the hide. He knows I don't want him in there, so he is very stealthy and quiet when he visits.