Adopted sulcata

[pinpin]

Hello! I am exceptionally new to the entire tortoise owning sector of the world, having kept a tiny fence lizard for 6 years. So you'll have to let me know about all the things I am doing wrong (or right) as I quickly figure out her care.

I just got a ~4 year old sulcata from someone who is moving to another country. The previous owner mentioned some growth problems, which seems to be pyramiding of the shell (and possibly lower carapace?)

Her daytime is spent partially outdoors to try to soak up some more sun.

Her current tank came from a pet shop and does a good job of keeping the heat at 90F. (This is a cleaned version...I had to spend a few hours scrubbing it when it first arrived! It is usually filled with dry hay, has a cardboard box for hiding, and a water dish. There are also various rocks. I should get around to taking another photo of this, although she seems content--no attempts to escape and comes to the front of the tank whenever she notices us.)

She seems alert, friendly, and voracious.
You can see her in action here.

Currently (it is our third day!) we have started feeding her cut up cactii mixed in with some dandelion greens and hay. I found that soaking the hay beforehand makes her less grumpy about eating it, and plan to switch it to mostly hay now after reading some care sheets. It's dusted with Rep-Cal and I have a jar of Herpevite...which I plan to use once a week.

So question-wise...any changes needed or is there some infection that I have failed to see?

The one thing which does worry me is that although the poop is solid and green, the tortoise releases a lot of water every once in awhile which is brown (especially if it is disturbed--picked up and carried downstairs).

All right, a very long first post. Hope it wasn't too long to read.

 

[turtletania]

Welcome to the world of tortoises. What's her name? Do you have any grass areas she can roam? I am new to Sulcata's (this year) but have other torts too. Other's I am sure will give more questions and help.

 

[Becki]

Is the third picture her inside enclosure?

 

[Tom]

Hello and welcome. That was a great first post. Congratulations on the new tortoise. I'd love to see some pictures of her tail and anal scutes so we can all guess "her" sex. She's still a little small to be sure, but some are obvious earlier than others.

She has some minor pyramiding, buts its not bad at all and should have no effect on her whatsoever.

That's a great little outdoor area, but she'll need something other than concrete under her feet and plastron. Concrete is too hard and abrasive and it will start to excessively wear out her shell and feet over time. Can you put down some orchid bark or cypress mulch in that area, or move her onto some grass.

For your inside enclosure: You mentioned 90 degrees, but there are four temps to be concerned with. Night 70ish, cool side 70-75, warm side 80-90 and basking spot (a small area directly under a heat lamp) 100-110. You can adjust the basking spot temp by moving the heat lamp up or down or changing to a different wattage bulb. Also, some substrate inside would be good too. You can use orchid bark, coco coir, cypress mulch or plain soil.

One thing that has been learned recently is that a lot of baby tortoises suffer from chronic dehydration. For a 4 year old, I would suggest a shallow, warm water soak 3-4 times a week for 20 minutes or so. She'll probably poop in there, so be prepared to dump and refill. This will keep your enclosures a lot cleaner too. Also leave a shallow bowl of water in there. Most of us use terra cotta plant saucers and bury them so they are flush with the substrate. You can spray her shell with plain water a couple of times a day and this will help her new growth to come in smoother too.

For diet, I wouldn't push too hard on the dry (or rehydrated) hay. That is more for bigger, older ones. For right now here's a list of good stuff: fresh grasses and weeds from a safe source, cactus, grape rose hibiscus and mulberry leaves, leafy greens and spring mix from the grocery store and a little soaked Mazuri tortoise chow mixed in a couple of times a week.

Make sure your calcium supplement does not have added D3 since she gets out in the sun regularly and I recommend it only in small amounts twice a week.

Glad you found our community here, and ask as many questions as you like.

 

[pinpin]

Her name is (creatively) "Tortoise." Unfortunately I'll be living in an apartment for at least a year. We had originally planned to get a hatchling tortoise (and a much smaller breed as well), which would have been small enough for 1-2 years until we moved...but best laid plans....)

Yes Becki, the third picture is her inside enclosure.

Thanks for the welcome and information Tom. It is hard to get a photo, but the top back of the enclosure is screen mesh, for air circulation. I'll look into soil for the enclosure, but would hay be a viable alternative? Overfeeding wouldn't be much of a concern, as I've not seen her eat dry hay at all.

Here is a quick shot tonight.

Tortoise has lived in this enclosure for 3 years, and while I've heard the occassional bump on the side, she hasn't been frantically digging or trying to escape, even with the front glass panels open. We tend to open them in the morning and watch her while we eat breakfast. Aside from the water dish and a small climbing area, I thought I would keep things simple for ease of cleanup.

I live in LA, so it's quite a concrete jungle unless one is a millionaire. Sadly I am not! The night temperature comes down to 65F, and there is a ceramic heat bulb on the right side of the enclosure, which I turn off at night (both the light and heater are on timers). I have yet to see her basking, she seems to be mostly on the side away from the heat.

Here are photos of her tail and anal scutes. I hope it is a female!

I didn't know about overdosing on Vitamin D (it being the miracle anti-inflammatory hot vitamin of the year). I'll have to find some this weekend.

On feeding in nutrition, I had gotten some Mazuri tortoise diet and looking at the label, it has a very high protein content (15%). Would this be all right as an occasional treat (~1 pellet/week)? In addition, I have taken to freezing chopped cactii. Online tortoise supplies need to have smaller portions for the single tortoise owner!

One final thing. This worries me, the tortoise releases a brown fluid (and sometimes a large amount after being frightened) daily. I catch it drinking water from time to time,and the diet so far has only been hay, dandilion greens (1 cup unpacked/day) with a small handful (1/4 cup) of chopped cactii.

Warning Poop photo!

 

[Annieski]

I think I remember reading on this forum, that it is the dandelion that gives the urine the "brownish" color you are questioning. May I suggest that you incorporate some more varied greens[turnip,endive,spring mix, and chicory]. The urine should be closer to clear---or "whitish" in color. And even though your tortoise is "older"-- she should have access to water daily, and perhaps a good "soak" in tepid[room temp] water, at least, 3 or 4 times a week. Get a large, saucer-like basin and fill it deep enough to when the tort is inside, the water comes to the point of where the bottom of the shell meets the lower portion of the top of the shell. This will help prevent dehydration and encourage drinking, whisch will help flush out those kidneys.

 

[kfb]

Congrats! Welcome to the forum. You are going to LOVE your new little friend. We have had ours for a few months now and I am amazed at her personality and much I look forward to her coming out in the morning and the afternoon. Have fun

 

[pinpin]

...the dandelion that gives the urine the "brownish" color you are questioning. May I suggest that you incorporate some more varied greens[turnip,endive,spring mix, and chicory]....

Thanks! I am beginning to see that Sulcatas are the Axolotls of the tortoise world. Still, I am quite happy to see how this goes and to push forward with yard-ownership.

I've cut back on the dandelion greens and am giving her a soak twice weekly.

 

[Laura]

YOU can start giving her SPring Mix lettuce also. nice variety.
wet it a bit and chop/cut up the hay and sprinkle it on top. it helps them get a taste for it. Some never do.
She will outgrow your indoor enclosure pretty quick..
welcome!

 

[tortoisenerd]

Welcome to the group!

Agreed on more variety of greens. Dandelions, although awesome as part of a varied diet, as most of the diet are too high in oxalic acid, which should be limited to limit the potential for stones and such, and it binds to calcium. The lettuces are lower. Also see if you can have access to chemical free weeds, edible flowers, leaves, greens, etc. You really need to get into a chemical free yard as soon as you can so you can scatter seeds and let her go to town grazing. If you even had 100 sq ft of yard to grow food and let her graze that is a huge improvement (and only then will she thrive). Also agreed only pure calcium. I'd like to see the tort out of that glass enclosure and into something much larger with solid sides and more height to allow for a deep substrate for digging (twice as deep as the tort is long for substrate is awesome). More hides so you have one near the basking spot, one in the coolest part, and at least one in a moderate temperature zone is idea. Hides can be anything from a pile of hay to a container or box to a fake plant. Once you have deep substrate its easier to use the fake plants, plant pot on its side, etc. I would also cut back on the cactus as too much can cause loose stools. What percent of the diet is it approximately?

I feed over 20 food items over the course of a couple months to give you an example of variety. Spring mix is great as with rotating brands you can get maybe 10 greens (no spinach), and I also frequent different types of stores to find my organic greens. Sometimes I even find some yummies like squash blossoms and cactus fruit. You just have to be creative. You can even grow food in planters, trays, pots, etc. Start with a seed mix like is sold online for some variety for easy, and use organic potting soil.Small amounts of Mazuri are fine but I agree to limit it as it has ingredients such as molasses and vitamins (I think no vitamins except calcium should be given because you don't know how much is too much, and a varied diet should be sufficient as in the wild torts eat a very low nutrient diet). She is a good age to incorporate the salad style moistened hay. How much time in the sun does she get? Are you sitting out there with her for the sun time? Having a set enclosure that she can call home out there with a water dish and hide is ideal. So glad she gets some sun.

Good luck and don't get overwhelmed! You have to make the changes over time for the tort to be able to adjust to them anyways, and you are doing awesome for a first time tot owner. I think "Tortoise" as a name is cute. We call my tort that all the time, along with dozens of other nicknames.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Don't worry so much about feeding hay as she is too young to eat it. It really takes an older tort to eat hay. You will get lots of different advice from people as everyone has their way of doing things and they say it is the only way. I feed Spring Mix daily and add all the other good stuff. Dandelions, weeds, grape leafs, mulberry leafs etc. In the beginning of the week I make a tort salad then feed from it all week. I cut it up to bite size pieces some don't. I also am not too worried about feeding the small amount of spinach that is in Spring Mix, others won't feed it. The amount of urine sounds normal and regular soakings will eventually make it clear. Keep asking questions and stay in touch. Welcome to the show...
That's a great enclosure you are lucky to get it.

 

[spikethebest]

Welcome to the forum!

 

[pinpin]

You will get lots of different advice from people as everyone has their way of doing things and they say it is the only way.

Hi Spike, Maggie, tortoisenerd, and Laura, thanks for the welcome. There does seem to be a spectrum of care ideas. It would be nice to have a section of caresheets for different species on this forum, so you can just point the newbies to read it and then ask nongeneral or exotic questions. I will definitely get spring mix--it simplifies feeding! I originally avoided nongrass leafy greens after reading this infosheet. In fact, this information sheet says there is a minimal amount of oxalic acid in dandelion leaves, but a lot in romaine lettuce, which is often in spring mix. So who knows who is right! Is there a good Sulcata husbandry textbook/paper?

I'm glad this is a hardy species and forgiving too!

I do feed her cactus daily, as it was touted on another website to be the best food for tortoises (again, the spectrum of care ideas). It makes up a quarter volume (but probably more than a quarter total weight). I will cut back on that to once a week. Also the cactus I am talking about are the cactus leaves/pads--not the cactus fruit. I wouldn't use the fruit as it contains a higher percentage of sugar, which is bad for the tortoise digestive system.

One thing which I don't understand physiologically is why giving high water content food (cactus) would cause runny stools. While this *would* seems self-explanatory, the tortoise has a separate urinary and digestive like us, and when we humans have loose stool, it has very little to do with how much wet food we have eaten or how much water we have drunk. In addition, there is also the equally vocal comment to keep the tortoise hydrated (soakings, water dish, etc.). Since the water _and_ the food goes into the same organ (stomach)...this also seems contradictory to the loose stool argument.

Does this have to do with digestive tract of a herbivore? Do the intestines function differently to prevent the absorption of water? Also, the water content in spring mix seems to be the same as for cactus, so it doesn't make much sense why feeding spring mix would help the stool. It may have more vitamins, but the solid-liquid composition of both vegetables are similar.

I've added a layer of playground sand into the enclosure, and am seeing how it works out for her. As for getting a bigger enclosure or a permanent outside pen, this isn't an immediate option since we signed a year's lease. This tortoise was a surprise, not a planned event. In fact, I had specifically ruled out a Sulcata due to their potentially large end size, and we were researching box turtles before she showed up (hence the Mazuri pellets). But, our friend was leaving the country and knew we wanted a tortoise, so this seemed like an amendable temporary solution. We'll see. Maybe it will be too much and we shall have to give it up.

 

[Tom]

Different food items seem to generally cause certain things to happen. I'm guessing it has a lot to do the the chemical composition of the food, and not as much with the moisture content. The amount of fiber taken in is also a factor as high fiber diets tend to move more slowly through the digestive tract.

As Maggie stated, everybody likes to do things differently and that is why there is no single care sheet. Also, because everybody lives in different climates and there are an infinite number variables, there just is not ONE way to do it. Adjustments have to be made for each situation. That, in my opinion, is one of the primary benefits to a forum like this. You get a lot of contradictory info, but over time, you start to get the complete picture and optimize YOUR set-up with bits and pieces of what you learn.

Along those lines, it is my opinion that sand should be avoided. It poses a serious risk of impaction and frequently causes eye irritation.

Good luck and enjoy the ride.

 

[Laura]

Add some soil to the sand and mix it.. better traction, not as dry and more natural.
and I So agree.. there is not one way to do it.. Do what works for you and is safe for the tort.

 

[Becki]

I love how you're THINKING and puzzling over your new pet.
Welcome!

 

[Annieski]

You will get lots of different advice from people as everyone has their way of doing things and they say it is the only way.

Hi Spike, Maggie, tortoisenerd, and Laura, thanks for the welcome. There does seem to be a spectrum of care ideas. It would be nice to have a section of caresheets for different species on this forum, so you can just point the newbies to read it and then ask nongeneral or exotic questions. I will definitely get spring mix--it simplifies feeding! I originally avoided nongrass leafy greens after reading this infosheet. In fact, this information sheet says there is a minimal amount of oxalic acid in dandelion leaves, but a lot in romaine lettuce, which is often in spring mix. So who knows who is right! Is there a good Sulcata husbandry textbook/paper?

I'm glad this is a hardy species and forgiving too!

I do feed her cactus daily, as it was touted on another website to be the best food for tortoises (again, the spectrum of care ideas). It makes up a quarter volume (but probably more than a quarter total weight). I will cut back on that to once a week. Also the cactus I am talking about are the cactus leaves/pads--not the cactus fruit. I wouldn't use the fruit as it contains a higher percentage of sugar, which is bad for the tortoise digestive system.

One thing which I don't understand physiologically is why giving high water content food (cactus) would cause runny stools. While this *would* seems self-explanatory, the tortoise has a separate urinary and digestive like us, and when we humans have loose stool, it has very little to do with how much wet food we have eaten or how much water we have drunk. In addition, there is also the equally vocal comment to keep the tortoise hydrated (soakings, water dish, etc.). Since the water _and_ the food goes into the same organ (stomach)...this also seems contradictory to the loose stool argument.

Does this have to do with digestive tract of a herbivore? Do the intestines function differently to prevent the absorption of water? Also, the water content in spring mix seems to be the same as for cactus, so it doesn't make much sense why feeding spring mix would help the stool. It may have more vitamins, but the solid-liquid composition of both vegetables are similar.

I've added a layer of playground sand into the enclosure, and am seeing how it works out for her. As for getting a bigger enclosure or a permanent outside pen, this isn't an immediate option since we signed a year's lease. This tortoise was a surprise, not a planned event. In fact, I had specifically ruled out a Sulcata due to their potentially large end size, and we were researching box turtles before she showed up (hence the Mazuri pellets). But, our friend was leaving the country and knew we wanted a tortoise, so this seemed like an amendable temporary solution. We'll see. Maybe it will be too much and we shall have to give it up.

Tortoises metabolism is very slow and designed to extract and HOLD water content, as a way to stay hydrated, since, in the wild, a water-source may not be readily available. Urine is expelled when additional "water" is available. Watery or loose stools are usually due to NOT ENOUGH fiber in the diet and sometimes parasites--and sometimes-STRESS[I believe this tortoise is NEW to you--as your home is new to him].I would try to add some fresh grasses[organic Wheat grass can be found in some stores] dark leafy greens,like turnip and chicory, and increase the amout of cactus pads offered, as they are not only high in calcium and Fiber--but are a staple that Sulcata in the wild, have access to easily.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

They need humidity and that can't be provided with sand as a substrate. I would not use sand as it also causes impaction...

 

[DeanS]

The fact of the matter is that if you are feeding cactus daily and (s)he's eating grass daily...then you don't need ANY supplements as long as (s)he has at least 6 hours of direct sunlight! Loose stools are going to be attributed to stress or parasites/worms. It couldn't hurt to collect a fresh sample and take it to a vet.

VERY CUTE...Love the video!

 

[pinpin]

Watery or loose stools are usually due to NOT ENOUGH fiber in the diet and sometimes parasites--and sometimes-STRESS[I believe this tortoise is NEW to you--as your home is new to him].I would try to add some fresh grasses[organic Wheat grass can be found in some stores] dark leafy greens,like turnip and chicory, and increase the amout of cactus pads offered, as they are not only high in calcium and Fiber--but are a staple that Sulcata in the wild, have access to easily.

Actually I think you hit the nail on the head about stress. After two weeks, the stool has gotten firm now. Guess she was just stressed about being in a new place.

Arrrgh, now to go take the sand out.