????about housing different species together

[TortoiseRN]

So a couple different times now I have been informed that its a bad idea to house different tort species together. However no one ever explains why. Someone please educate me beyond saying, its bad or it can make them sick. Bad how or sick how would be more helpful.

 

[wellington]

Different things that one could be a carrier of, yet immune to but not the other. Now one passes something to the other that he/she is not immune to and you have a sick or dead tort. That would be the main reason, the more obvious reason would be different care requirements. The one reason people probably aren't explaining, is because it has been explained over and over. Sometimes it's hard to remember that not everyone has already heard the reasons behind the answer.

 

[dannel]

Most species have different environmental needs and temp/humidity needs to live together. There can also be bullying going on as well.

 

[Tom]

Three main reasons:

1. Disease and parasite potential. Different tortoises from different parts of the world are not equipped to deal with each others internal nasties.
2. Behavioral incompatibility. Some species are much more "bull in a china shop"-ish than others.
3. Hybridization. What we have in captivity is very precious and should be treated as such. Hybridization lessens what we have.

 

[TortoiseRN]

Makes sense now thank you for the straight forward answers.

 

[tortadise]

Tom has it labeled out pretty good.

Certain species will have different antigens that can be deadly. For instance as an example. A redfoot tortoise could have antibodies that fight well against disease a1, and a sulcata can have antigens that fight fisease b1. Well when you house them together each immune system is built for specific environmental comprises and see diffetent disease or micro diseases. So when placed together they have the possibilities of not being able to fight certain common "colds" or disease issues. Best to keep them seperated.

 

[jaizei]

I think it's kinda like keeping an African tortoise in your North American backyard....bad idea. The tortoise hasn't evolved to live in that environment or deal with all the microscopic critters that live there. I can think of many cases where people put sulcatas in their backyards, and the tortoise later died. Does anyone else need anymore convincing proof.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I think it's kinda like keeping an African tortoise in your North American backyard....bad idea. The tortoise hasn't evolved to live in that environment or deal with all the microscopic critters that live there. I can think of many cases where people put sulcatas in their backyards, and the tortoise later died. Does anyone else need anymore convincing proof.

This I disagree with, because TONS of people keep their tortoises outdoors for most of their lives, and the tortoises live for decades. Sulcatas are arguably one of the hardiest and most adaptable tortoise species we got (once they get past that hatchling stage). They do just fine in Florida as they do in Arizona.

I would be very interested to hear about the specifics of those "many" cases you mentioned, as to compare to them to the many adult sulcatas I know have been living outdoors in North America for several decades. I'm sure the experienced keepers may comment on this one as well.

---

So a couple different times now I have been informed that its a bad idea to house different tort species together. However no one ever explains why. Someone please educate me beyond saying, its bad or it can make them sick. Bad how or sick how would be more helpful.

Just to point out, that your statement I bolded in red is not entirely accurate. This question is asked quite often, on many reptile forums, and if you actually open each thread, you will see that it is almost ALWAYS explained why this is a bad idea.

Most people just don't look hard enough.

 

[jaizei]

I think it's kinda like keeping an African tortoise in your North American backyard....bad idea. The tortoise hasn't evolved to live in that environment or deal with all the microscopic critters that live there. I can think of many cases where people put sulcatas in their backyards, and the tortoise later died. Does anyone else need anymore convincing proof.

This I disagree with, because TONS of people keep their tortoises outdoors for most of their lives, and the tortoises live for decades. Sulcatas are arguably one of the hardiest and most adaptable tortoise species we got (once they get past that hatchling stage). They do just fine in Florida as they do in Arizona.

I would be very interested to hear about the specifics of those "many" cases you mentioned, as to compare to them to the many adult sulcatas I know have been living outdoors in North America for several decades. I'm sure the experienced keepers may comment on this one as well.

---

So a couple different times now I have been informed that its a bad idea to house different tort species together. However no one ever explains why. Someone please educate me beyond saying, its bad or it can make them sick. Bad how or sick how would be more helpful.

Just to point out, that your statement I bolded in red is not entirely accurate. This question is asked quite often, on many reptile forums, and if you actually open each thread, you will see that it is almost ALWAYS explained why this is a bad idea.

Most people just don't look hard enough.

---

How is my "African tortoise in a North American backyard" scenario any different than mixing species? If we're talking about tortoises not being able to handle something they didn't evolve alongside. It is assumed safe because people have done it for so long. I know of plenty of experienced keepers that have mixed species to one degree or another for decades. Therefore it is safe? Is only certain peoples experience relevant? Only when it agrees with our opinion?

It is actually just about never explained. But I would love to be enlightened with any actual facts you have. None of this "Tortoises 'a' were mixed with tortoises 'b', some or all later died therefore it must have been caused by mixing species. Necropsy? no. Any actual evidence? no." Because that type of faulty logic is no better than my examples.

 

[Tom]

Here we go again...

Soil microbes are a lot different than parasites or pathogens that are contained in a similar species. You notice your dog never catches your flu? Get next to a chimp or an orang when you've got the flu and see what happens... Tortoises can pass diseases between each other more easily than whatever has lived in my North American backyard.

Just because YOU, jaizei, have not witnessed tortoises of different species infecting each other with their diseases and dying, does not mean the rest of us haven't. And YOU don't have any studies that prove it doesn't happen.

To get the evidence that you and Baoh require to stop this senseless arguing is not impossible, but extremely impractical and expensive. Live healthy tortoises would have to be necropsied along with sick or dead ones to prove that a specific pathogen jumped from one to another. Each individual necropsy runs $1000. I know. I've done it. Are you going to spend thousands of your dollars and euthanize many perfectly healthy tortoises to prove something that is obvious and has been witnessed many times by many tortoise keepers? I'm not. This would have to be done with dozens of tortoises in a lab-like setting and even then technicality lovers like you would still find a reason to question it.

I DO have necropsy results. The first question the vet asked me when the results came in was if I kept species A, B, or C, because the species I sent in does not normally carry that pathogen. I did not keep any of those species, but the man who sent me the diseased tortoises kept all three.

Another way to view it: If people follow my advice, and do not mix species, what harm is done?
If people don't follow my advice, mix species, and tortoise die, who are you helping by pointing out that no one has completely impractical evidence that would cost many thousands of dollars to obtain?

I have never seen a lone tortoise with a proper enclosure contract some some North American backyard tortoise pathogen and die. I HAVE seen many tortoises contract diseases that were obviously from other tortoises that are known to carry them, get sick and die. I get PMs from some of our members on other continents, where it is common to mix species, asking for help with strange maladies. Many times it is obvious that their tortoise has a disease that is common to one of the other species that is being housed with it.

You can choose to ignore whatever you want. You can choose to dismiss the observations of others because of lack of scientific documentation. But you help nobody with this silly arguing. Even if all of us that say not to mix species are idiots and we are dead wrong, no tortoises will be harmed by following our advice.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

How is my "African tortoise in a North American backyard" scenario any different than mixing species? If we're talking about tortoises not being able to handle something they didn't evolve alongside. It is assumed safe because people have done it for so long. I know of plenty of experienced keepers that have mixed species to one degree or another for decades. Therefore it is safe? Is only certain peoples experience relevant? Only when it agrees with our opinion?

Well for starters, there are many advantages to keeping the larger tortoises outdoors as opposed to indoors, regardless of the country. Yes, the points you raise about possible risk of contamination from North American pathogens is there, but minimal. The pros in relation to the welfare of keeping said animal in natural sunshine, and larger open spaces outweighs the cons of possible pathogen transmission.

On the flip side, aside from the few exception species (redfoots, yellowfoots, pancakes), which are somewhat debatable themselves, in regards to welfare and health to the animals, there is no real benefit to mixing species.
--------------

It is assumed safe because people have done it for so long.

No, it is safe because people have more favorable results and healthier tortoises keeping them outdoors when the climate permits as opposed to restricting them to a basement or a garage. Again, I'm not judging those in the latter category, but look at a group of sulcatas that have been raised indoors all their lives and a group that has been raised outdoors all their lives, and tell me you don't see a difference.

It is actually just about never explained. But I would love to be enlightened with any actual facts you have. None of this "Tortoises 'a' were mixed with tortoises 'b', some or all later died therefore it must have been caused by mixing species. Necropsy? no. Any actual evidence? no." Because that type of faulty logic is no better than my examples.

Well, all I know is that no one ever had a tortoise die just from being outdoors in North America (barring newbs sticking hatchlings out with no shade or water. These cases had nothing to do with pathogens or contamination from being outside on a continent different from their homeland).

On the other hand, there is a lot of stories about pathogens wiping out entire collections just from someone mixing species, or merely from not using proper QT methods. Maybe they're true, perhaps not. But where there is smoke, there is usually fire. In this case, no one can ever come up with a real, legitimate benefit for mixing species. If there is no benefit to doing it, why do it and risk it?
------
I think you need to talk to a few more experienced keepers on this subject.

 

[Len B]

My thoughts on this subject, Most of you have never spent hours picking ticks off of fresh imports, and that was the way it was years ago,when a shipment came in, Back in the olden days that was the first thing you did. Ticks from Asia, Africa, and South America, But after the tick removal the tortoises all went into the same pens until they were sold but some were separated by size not species,(never thought about the internal parasites) I personally never experienced any mass kill off, but they didn't stay long before they were sold.These weren't large quantities but just a few different species and sometimes from different countries at the same time would come in.One of the strangest things I had happen was an adult male redfoot ate an adult pancake tortoise,so from then on pancakes where separated from the rest. Today most tortoise sold are captive bred, so my feelings are, to separate for tortoise needs is more important than separating for internal pathogens, as it was when most were imports and we didn't know any better.I don't want to argue the point just stating how it was over 40 years ago and even then they all didn't die.

 

[Tom]

Len with all do respect (and you know there is a lot there), all the guys I know that were dealing with wild caught tortoises and trying to establish breeding colonies DID have mass die offs over a period of months after they procured their foundation stock. This is where the term "long term captive" started being used as a positive description for an animal. One guy that comes to mind told me he lost over half the leopards he got in. With meds and tremendous effort he got some to survive and eventually went on to breeding success.

There are certainly FEWER risks and problems due to todays captive breeding, but there is still not a complete absence of any risk or problem, as I have experienced and witnessed first hand. No one is saying that any tortoise that has any contact with any other species is going to automatically die. We are simply saying that it IS a risk, and we are recommending against it.

Really, from my point of view as a trainer and behaviorist, my primary reason for recommending against mixing species is for behavioral reasons. Sure the disease potential matters to me too, but I just don't like seeing sulcatas in with leopards, for example.

 

[TortoiseBoy1999]

Ok, no offense jaizie, but completely forget what jaizie said about the Sulcata in North America. I really do not agree with that. But go by what everyone else said about the parasites and the qoute on qoute "cold" that one maybe be able to fight off while the other one can't. Sorry jaizie, I don't like to tell people not to listen to another forum member (because I'm not one to go looking for a fight or to start an argument) but I don't think that information is completely accurate and I don't want TortoiseRN to get confused.

 

[jaizei]

Here we go again...

Soil microbes are a lot different than parasites or pathogens that are contained in a similar species. You notice your dog never catches your flu? Get next to a chimp or an orang when you've got the flu and see what happens... Tortoises can pass diseases between each other more easily than whatever has lived in my North American backyard.

So there are no chelonians (or even reptiles) native to North America?

Just because YOU, jaizei, have not witnessed tortoises of different species infecting each other with their diseases and dying, does not mean the rest of us haven't. And YOU don't have any studies that prove it doesn't happen.

I do not recall saying that doesn't happen, or isn't possible. I would not recommend those that are ill informed mix species (or even members of the same species), but a knowledgeable keeper mixing species is another matter. I have said that I think the risk is overstated.

To get the evidence that you and Baoh require to stop this senseless arguing is not impossible, but extremely impractical and expensive. Live healthy tortoises would have to be necropsied along with sick or dead ones to prove that a specific pathogen jumped from one to another. Each individual necropsy runs $1000. I know. I've done it. Are you going to spend thousands of your dollars and euthanize many perfectly healthy tortoises to prove something that is obvious and has been witnessed many times by many tortoise keepers? I'm not. This would have to be done with dozens of tortoises in a lab-like setting and even then technicality lovers like you would still find a reason to question it.

I DO have necropsy results. The first question the vet asked me when the results came in was if I kept species A, B, or C, because the species I sent in does not normally carry that pathogen. I did not keep any of those species, but the man who sent me the diseased tortoises kept all three.

Still kind of vague so I'll help you: the subject of the necropsy was a _______________ that was infected with ______________(pathogen), which is unusual and may have been caused by mixing with species __(A), __(B), or __(C). Was the pathogen determined to be the cause of death? For $1000, I'm sure the vet gave you some sort of fancy report. Why not share?

Just because species were mixed, and some subsequently died, does not mean the former caused the latter. I try not to make assumptions.


Another way to view it: If people follow my advice, and do not mix species, what harm is done?
If people don't follow my advice, mix species, and tortoise die, who are you helping by pointing out that no one has completely impractical evidence that would cost many thousands of dollars to obtain?

I have never seen a lone tortoise with a proper enclosure contract some some North American backyard tortoise pathogen and die. I HAVE seen many tortoises contract diseases that were obviously from other tortoises that are known to carry them, get sick and die. I get PMs from some of our members on other continents, where it is common to mix species, asking for help with strange maladies. Many times it is obvious that their tortoise has a disease that is common to one of the other species that is being housed with it.

You can choose to ignore whatever you want. You can choose to dismiss the observations of others because of lack of scientific documentation. But you help nobody with this silly arguing. Even if all of us that say not to mix species are idiots and we are dead wrong, no tortoises will be harmed by following our advice.

I am not ignoring anything. It is hard to ignore something that you have not provided to us. Give your opinion all you want, but stop acting as though it is proven fact. For someone who rails so hard against the "old ways", you use the same faulty logic they did, full of assumptions.

I think you need to talk to a few more experienced keepers on this subject.

Why do you say this? Keep going till I find someone who's opinion conforms to yours?

Len with all do respect (and you know there is a lot there), all the guys I know that were dealing with wild caught tortoises and trying to establish breeding colonies DID have mass die offs over a period of months after they procured their foundation stock. This is where the term "long term captive" started being used as a positive description for an animal. One guy that comes to mind told me he lost over half the leopards he got in. With meds and tremendous effort he got some to survive and eventually went on to breeding success.

And there was proof that these die offs were caused by mixing species? Or is your point that some wild caught animals fail to acclimate to captivity and thus the LTC term became popular to describe animals that had successfully acclimated.

 

[jaizei]

Soil microbes are a lot different than parasites or pathogens that are contained in a similar species. You notice your dog never catches your flu? Get next to a chimp or an orang when you've got the flu and see what happens... Tortoises can pass diseases between each other more easily than whatever has lived in my North American backyard.

So there are no chelonians (or even reptiles) native to North America? That is were the risk would presumably be.

Just because YOU, jaizei, have not witnessed tortoises of different species infecting each other with their diseases and dying, does not mean the rest of us haven't. And YOU don't have any studies that prove it doesn't happen.

I do not recall saying that doesn't happen, or isn't possible. I have said that I think the risk is overstated. I would not recommend that those who are ill informed mix species (or even members of the same species), but a knowledgeable keeper mixing species is another matter.

To get the evidence that you and Baoh require to stop this senseless arguing is not impossible, but extremely impractical and expensive. Live healthy tortoises would have to be necropsied along with sick or dead ones to prove that a specific pathogen jumped from one to another. Each individual necropsy runs $1000. I know. I've done it. Are you going to spend thousands of your dollars and euthanize many perfectly healthy tortoises to prove something that is obvious and has been witnessed many times by many tortoise keepers? I'm not. This would have to be done with dozens of tortoises in a lab-like setting and even then technicality lovers like you would still find a reason to question it.

I DO have necropsy results. The first question the vet asked me when the results came in was if I kept species A, B, or C, because the species I sent in does not normally carry that pathogen. I did not keep any of those species, but the man who sent me the diseased tortoises kept all three.

Still kind of vague so I'll help you: the subject of the necropsy was a _______________ that was infected with ______________(pathogen), which is unusual and may have been caused by mixing with species __________(A), __________(B), or ________(C). Was the pathogen determined to be the cause of death? For $1000, I'm sure the vet gave you some sort of fancy report. Why not share?

Just because species were mixed, and some animals subsequently died, does not mean the former caused the latter.

I think you need to talk to a few more experienced keepers on this subject.

Why do you say this? Keep going till I find someone who's opinion conforms to yours?

 

[Tom]

That was left vague for a reason. I don't need people like you and Baoh with ulterior motives and inside information pointing fingers and causing problems for me or other people in the tortoise business.

It doesn't matter anyway, as whatever I filled in the blanks with would only be more ammunition for you to use against me in some obscure way. I could jump through your hoops all day and you'll just keep saying the same thing. The bottom line is that not mixing species is good advice for people and tortoises in general. What is it you are advising? Oh yeah, you aren't advising anything. You are just stirring the pot, causing trouble and pointing out that those who recommend not mixing species don't have enough specific scientific evidence, in YOUR opinion, to make such a recommendation. You've just said yourself that you don't recommend mixing species for some people, who you have deemed unfit. Yet somehow its okay for an expert like you? So really what is this all about? Are you trying to make yourself look smart? Are you trying to make me and others look stupid? One day you, and your tortoises, will pay for your ignorance and arrogance.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I think you need to talk to a few more experienced keepers on this subject.

Why do you say this? Keep going till I find someone who's opinion conforms to yours?

Not necessarily. But your opinion is founded on your desire to argue for the pure heck of it apparently, and it seems to be clouding your judgment.

My stance that no non-native tortoises have died as a result from being in contact with native herp species is founded more on factual observation by myself and other keepers. Just because it wasn't cited in a peer-reviewed scientific journal doesn't disqualify its credibility. We see it all the time. They don't die. Period.

Again, we can cite all the benefits from housing tortoises outdoors. You can offer no benefits from mixing species. You have no leg to stand on. Just give it up. You can stand there behind your computer monitor and spew and sputter, and continue to argue point by point for the next 5 pages if you wish. But it doesn't change anything. You just looking for something to argue about. I'm not sure why, I don't know you that well, and honestly don't care.

But I know the disadvantages of mixing species outweigh any reason one could come up with, so I do not understand why a genuine tortoise keeper who cares for the welfare of their animals would bother arguing against it so fervently?

 

[jaizei]

That was left vague for a reason. I don't need people like you and Baoh with ulterior motives and inside information pointing fingers and causing problems for me or other people in the tortoise business.

It doesn't matter anyway, as whatever I filled in the blanks with would only be more ammunition for you to use against me in some obscure way. I could jump through your hoops all day and you'll just keep saying the same thing. The bottom line is that not mixing species is good advice for people and tortoises in general. What is it you are advising? Oh yeah, you aren't advising anything. You are just stirring the pot, causing trouble and pointing out that those who recommend not mixing species don't have enough specific scientific evidence, in YOUR opinion, to make such a recommendation. You've just said yourself that you don't recommend mixing species for some people, who you have deemed unfit. Yet somehow its okay for an expert like you? So really what is this all about? Are you trying to make yourself look smart? Are you trying to make me and others look stupid? One day you, and your tortoises, will pay for your ignorance and arrogance.

Funny how in previous threads you didn't have any evidence, now you do but it's top secret.

What ulterior motives? Can't you be a little more specific in your accusations.

You claim to have proof, yet refuse to provide it. The hoops are of your own creation.

I advise people to do what is best for them and their situation using all available information. I've said that I think the risk is overstated. I think the way I present this makes it evident that it is my opinion.

I think someone should be knowledgeable before housing multiple animals together, regardless if its the same species or different. I try to be as informed as possible when I make decisions, so I suggest the same to others. So naturally when someone is ill informed, I would not recommend they do something until they educate themselves better on the subject. I must have missed the part where I claimed to be an expert. I don't ride around here on a high horse. I am not aware of anytime that I have posted that I was superior to anyone on this forum.

There's the Tom I know. Nice of you to make an appearance there at the end.

I think you need to talk to a few more experienced keepers on this subject.

Why do you say this? Keep going till I find someone who's opinion conforms to yours?

Not necessarily. But your opinion is founded on your desire to argue for the pure heck of it apparently, and it seems to be clouding your judgment.

How so?

My stance that no non-native tortoises have died as a result from being in contact with native herp species is founded more on factual observation by myself and other keepers. Just because it wasn't cited in a peer-reviewed scientific journal doesn't disqualify its credibility. We see it all the time. They don't die. Period.

Between the many experienced keepers that purposefully mix species, and the way that most people who keep multiple species inadvertently mix species, I can claim the exact same thing. There is as much 'factual observation' on this side as that. I suppose this "native exception" means that I can keep RES in my sulcata or leopard's pond? I'm more comfortable with my opinion, and what it is based on, than the gerrymandered logic of the other side.

Again, we can cite all the benefits from housing tortoises outdoors. You can offer no benefits from mixing species. You have no leg to stand on. Just give it up. You can stand there behind your computer monitor and spew and sputter, and continue to argue point by point for the next 5 pages if you wish. But it doesn't change anything. You just looking for something to argue about. I'm not sure why, I don't know you that well, and honestly don't care.

But I know the disadvantages of mixing species outweigh any reason one could come up with, so I do not understand why a genuine tortoise keeper who cares for the welfare of their animals would bother arguing against it so fervently?

It's lovely the way you try to marginalize those that do not agree with you.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Risks of outside for an animal are minimal, as the outside environment gets washed with the sun everyday, for the most part. Very many pathogens only last outside of a carrier body for a few hours, days etc. There are a great many things outside the feed on the potential pathogens, all kinds of decomposing organisms. Outside gets turned over and is pretty clean very quick. And step away from your $100.00 russian or your $10,000 aldabra long enough to consider the $2,000,000 okapi that is kept outside in a zoo, etc. Like zoos or hate them need not disturb that they are a business, and they are not going to waste millions worth of animals.

Most, not all, but most are pathogens target specific organisms ( they have evolved in a escalating war with each other as some biologists call it ), the further you get away from the target organism the ability/chance that the pathogen will jump species is ever smaller. Less we would all have canine distemper, of feline leukemia.

Then there are transmission routes to consider. Feces and other wet discharges are the highway or micro-organism travel. Dried out in the sun for a few hours kills most real quick. Inside when two animal are in close proximity, they have a longer out of the body life and potential to jump from one individual to the other. So two species of testudo, one from north Africa and one from southern Europe, as an example, are really going to have many great opportunities to share novel pathogens. Novel meaning the pathogen can live in either tortoise, but the one tortoise is incompetent to deal with it.

The evolution rate of microorganisms is considerable faster in real time, as their generation time is a low as hours. So they can blow out millions of new pathogenic organism in a week. SciFi movies call this mutation (not a wrong term).

Consider even one species from two very different environments. Redfoots from the forest floor in Amazonian to Redfoots from the scrub desert of Paraguay. They should not be mixed even though they are the same species, they come from such drastic different habitats, they will have different pathogenic microbes on them, as well as being habituated to different cues from their respective 'home' environments.

There is also this thing called the precautionary principle. Google and self educate on this topic.

Relate the whole scenario to people even being pathogen carriers to other people, and naive populations getting wiped out by from others who would be carriers of some disease. Some populations of people have actually adapted to a disease process, where other have not. (malaria and sickle-cell).

Think how different the face of the world would be if first north Americans had some pathogen that was brought back to Europe, and not European people who brought disease to north America. In just, what, 500 years of one simple general disease transmission event, the whole world would be different. But I digress.

Quarantine is forever with captive animals. That it is thought of a certain period of time is shortsighted. Qualified quarantine where specific tests and observations are made to ascertain the health of an individual makes sense, but when would you not do this? After you had the animal for two years?

So every time you mix the same species from the same population you have a chance of causing a disease outbreak, let alone different species or even the same species from different areas. It a simple precaution.

You can drive home with a beer or two, many times, not get caught or cause a traffic incident, it's not the cautious thing to do though.

Will

Will