Hi All,
First time tortoise owner here and this is my first real post on the forum beyond an introduction. Unfortunately, this post is a sad one. Almost exactly 2 months ago we purchased Tuga, our little Eastern Hermann’s hatchling from Tyler Stewart at Tortoise Supply. For most of the time we had him, his behavior seemed healthy and normal for a hatchling. He seemed to grow a bit and also weighed-in just the other day at 15 grams, a gram more than we he came to us. Unfortunately and despite my best efforts, Tuga passed away yesterday after about a week of not appearing well.
Prior to receiving Tuga I had carefully read through Chris Leone’s care sheet, forum member Tom’s “Beginner Mistakes” and several other articles & Youtube videos really trying to get it right from the outset. When things started to become concerning about a week ago, I began searching for and reading through nearly every thread here on the forum and elsewhere dealing with what I was experiencing. I very much appreciated all the advice that was out there from veteran forum members as to what to try. Yesterday was my 2nd attempt at a baby food soak. If symptoms were persisting I was going to do my own posting here today and probably would have sought out a herp vet. When I took him out of his supervised soak yesterday, however, I noticed he wasn’t just not moving but had actually passed away.
We loved having this little tortoise as part of our family and the experience has been upsetting for me and sad for all of us. I am trying not to blame myself too much but I cannot help feeling guilty about the fate of our little baby. I want to honor Tuga by giving a full account and learning as much as possible about what might have gone wrong and what, if anything, I could have done differently. We are planning to try again with another Eastern Hermann’s from Chris at Garden State. My hope is that some of you great people will be able to take the time to read through all of this and offer any thoughts so as to help our next baby thrive.
Enclosure:
36” x 24” concrete mixing tub shown in photos. Humid hides with moistened sphagnum moss
Substrate:
Organic potting soil mixed with equal parts reptibark and coconut coir (2 inches deep) + top 1 inch layer of cypress mulch, spritzed down at least twice a day when indoors, heavier misting with hose attachment when outside.
Lighting:
-Reptisun 10.0 flourescent tube
-ZooMed 50 watt MVB for recent therapeutic soaks
Heat:
-100 watt CHE inside Flukers 8” dome with dimmer, basking area adjusted to be between 95-110 degrees
Temps:
INDOORS:
Basking – 95-110
Cool side – 73-77
Ambient – 73-82
Night – 68-73 degrees. Heat removed at night and top covered directly thereafter with heavy press board to trap humidity
Tuga was taken outside for between 4-8 hours a day depending on weather/temperature (when above 65 degrees and withsunshine) Basically we were trying to help him get used to our natural climate so that he could eventually live in an outdoor enclosure a year or so down the road. Temps in Santa Cruz this past week have topped out at around 75-80F. I have been home much of the past 2 months and so closely monitored when Tuga was outside to ensure he had about half the enclosure in deep shade. Shaded areas were usually anywhere from 65-85 and areas with full sun ranged from 105 degrees up to 125 degrees surface temp.
*All surface temps checked with IR temp gun
*Heavy misting with hose attachment 3-4 times a day when outside and hot & with full sun hitting ½ of enclosure. This was to keep it from being too scorching and to keep the humidity high.
Humidity:
Ambient humidity shown on the hygrometer always hovered somewhere in the range of 45-55% and would raise anywhere from 60-80% when covered overnight. I’m sure the humidity in his hides was much higher. When outside during the day, the humidity here has ranged anywhere from the 40s to high 70s. Again, I used the hose attachment to mist during the day, especially when it got hotter this past week.
Soaking:
Daily soaks for 15-30 minutes. VitaSol bird vitamins (3-4 drops) added to bath water once or twice a week regardless of his behavior. Water temp for baths started at 95-100 degrees, dropping to 75-80. Water coming up to his bridge and not above the nostrils. Soaks usually done inside, sometimes with 5-10 minutes in the sun or mixed.
Diet:
-Mazuri LS & ZooMed Grassland (soaked/moistened) and often mixed with other diced greens listed below. Dusted/mixed with calcium + D3 & Herptavite.
-Weeds: Dandelion, clover, thistle, English & broadleaf plantain
-Radicchio, Arugula, curly endive, escarole, chicory
-Grazing mix shown here: http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=41&products_id=179
Basically I was trying to offer him a really varied diet and sample things to see what he liked. He always had access to a cuttle bone but never touched it. I also twice let him eat a very small amount of watermelon…once just to try and for “metabolic moisture” and then again when I had not seen him poop for a while to try to help with that. He had constant access to water in a sunken terracotta saucer but I only ever saw him drink from it once or twice.
Symptoms:
-Not appearing to poop (1st symptom I noticed) Usually he would do this during his soaks but it became less frequent and then stopped all together about a week ago.
-Lethargy, little movement within his thermal gradient, staying mostly in his humid hides. In the last 2-3 days he was sleeping in more or less one spot where I put him down in the middle of his enclosure in the evening.
-About a week ago, I noticed when picking him up that his sides felt softer and a bit squishy, same with his plastron. He was not eating anything that I had prepared with his calcium supplement but I was making sure that he was getting 15-30 minutes of direct outdoor sunlight every day (as I had done every day from day one) Usually this was done after his soaks by putting him in the deck planter where we grew his grazing mix and supervising while he nibbled.
As for his eyes, they were never really swollen shut or closed much beyond when he was sleeping/basking, etc
There was a very similar case just last month with another Eastern Hermann’s hatchling as discussed in this thread: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-hermans-stopped-eating-red-spots-on-shell.156781/
Therapeutic:
15-30 min soaks upped to twice a day when not appearing to poop and upped to 45 mins to 1 hour 2x/day when he started also appearing very lethargic. One of the 2 daily soaks was with 3-4 drops of VitaSol. Water temp for baths again started at approximately 95-100 degrees, placed under a MVB and dome, dropping to 84-88. Also, he appeared to bubble at the nostrils just a little bit during and right after these more recent warm soaks but otherwise not at all that I noticed. During one soak a couple days ago, I did hear a crackling noise, but again this appeared to subside completely once he was out of his longer, warm soak.
On the 4th day of no observed eating/pooping and lethargy, I began carrot baby food soaks as outlined here on the forum. Yesterday, on the 2nd day and during the baby food soak just before he passed away I noticed his mouth opening and closing under the water. Again, I made sure the level was not too deep and not covering his nostrils. I also noticed him abruptly and very sharply draw his head in for no apparent reason. It’s upsetting for me to think now that this was him in his death throes and I do hope he didn’t suffer too much.
I realize I have been a bit clinical and long-winded here but in memory of Tuga I really wanted to be comprehensive and give as much information as possible. Again, this has been pretty heartbreaking for my family and I so writing this all out has also been helpful. Thank you again for taking the time to read this. We greatly look forward to and appreciate any support.
First time tortoise owner here and this is my first real post on the forum beyond an introduction. Unfortunately, this post is a sad one. Almost exactly 2 months ago we purchased Tuga, our little Eastern Hermann’s hatchling from Tyler Stewart at Tortoise Supply. For most of the time we had him, his behavior seemed healthy and normal for a hatchling. He seemed to grow a bit and also weighed-in just the other day at 15 grams, a gram more than we he came to us. Unfortunately and despite my best efforts, Tuga passed away yesterday after about a week of not appearing well.
Prior to receiving Tuga I had carefully read through Chris Leone’s care sheet, forum member Tom’s “Beginner Mistakes” and several other articles & Youtube videos really trying to get it right from the outset. When things started to become concerning about a week ago, I began searching for and reading through nearly every thread here on the forum and elsewhere dealing with what I was experiencing. I very much appreciated all the advice that was out there from veteran forum members as to what to try. Yesterday was my 2nd attempt at a baby food soak. If symptoms were persisting I was going to do my own posting here today and probably would have sought out a herp vet. When I took him out of his supervised soak yesterday, however, I noticed he wasn’t just not moving but had actually passed away.
We loved having this little tortoise as part of our family and the experience has been upsetting for me and sad for all of us. I am trying not to blame myself too much but I cannot help feeling guilty about the fate of our little baby. I want to honor Tuga by giving a full account and learning as much as possible about what might have gone wrong and what, if anything, I could have done differently. We are planning to try again with another Eastern Hermann’s from Chris at Garden State. My hope is that some of you great people will be able to take the time to read through all of this and offer any thoughts so as to help our next baby thrive.
Enclosure:
36” x 24” concrete mixing tub shown in photos. Humid hides with moistened sphagnum moss
Substrate:
Organic potting soil mixed with equal parts reptibark and coconut coir (2 inches deep) + top 1 inch layer of cypress mulch, spritzed down at least twice a day when indoors, heavier misting with hose attachment when outside.
Lighting:
-Reptisun 10.0 flourescent tube
-ZooMed 50 watt MVB for recent therapeutic soaks
Heat:
-100 watt CHE inside Flukers 8” dome with dimmer, basking area adjusted to be between 95-110 degrees
Temps:
INDOORS:
Basking – 95-110
Cool side – 73-77
Ambient – 73-82
Night – 68-73 degrees. Heat removed at night and top covered directly thereafter with heavy press board to trap humidity
Tuga was taken outside for between 4-8 hours a day depending on weather/temperature (when above 65 degrees and withsunshine) Basically we were trying to help him get used to our natural climate so that he could eventually live in an outdoor enclosure a year or so down the road. Temps in Santa Cruz this past week have topped out at around 75-80F. I have been home much of the past 2 months and so closely monitored when Tuga was outside to ensure he had about half the enclosure in deep shade. Shaded areas were usually anywhere from 65-85 and areas with full sun ranged from 105 degrees up to 125 degrees surface temp.
*All surface temps checked with IR temp gun
*Heavy misting with hose attachment 3-4 times a day when outside and hot & with full sun hitting ½ of enclosure. This was to keep it from being too scorching and to keep the humidity high.
Humidity:
Ambient humidity shown on the hygrometer always hovered somewhere in the range of 45-55% and would raise anywhere from 60-80% when covered overnight. I’m sure the humidity in his hides was much higher. When outside during the day, the humidity here has ranged anywhere from the 40s to high 70s. Again, I used the hose attachment to mist during the day, especially when it got hotter this past week.
Soaking:
Daily soaks for 15-30 minutes. VitaSol bird vitamins (3-4 drops) added to bath water once or twice a week regardless of his behavior. Water temp for baths started at 95-100 degrees, dropping to 75-80. Water coming up to his bridge and not above the nostrils. Soaks usually done inside, sometimes with 5-10 minutes in the sun or mixed.
Diet:
-Mazuri LS & ZooMed Grassland (soaked/moistened) and often mixed with other diced greens listed below. Dusted/mixed with calcium + D3 & Herptavite.
-Weeds: Dandelion, clover, thistle, English & broadleaf plantain
-Radicchio, Arugula, curly endive, escarole, chicory
-Grazing mix shown here: http://www.carolinapetsupply.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=41&products_id=179
Basically I was trying to offer him a really varied diet and sample things to see what he liked. He always had access to a cuttle bone but never touched it. I also twice let him eat a very small amount of watermelon…once just to try and for “metabolic moisture” and then again when I had not seen him poop for a while to try to help with that. He had constant access to water in a sunken terracotta saucer but I only ever saw him drink from it once or twice.
Symptoms:
-Not appearing to poop (1st symptom I noticed) Usually he would do this during his soaks but it became less frequent and then stopped all together about a week ago.
-Lethargy, little movement within his thermal gradient, staying mostly in his humid hides. In the last 2-3 days he was sleeping in more or less one spot where I put him down in the middle of his enclosure in the evening.
-About a week ago, I noticed when picking him up that his sides felt softer and a bit squishy, same with his plastron. He was not eating anything that I had prepared with his calcium supplement but I was making sure that he was getting 15-30 minutes of direct outdoor sunlight every day (as I had done every day from day one) Usually this was done after his soaks by putting him in the deck planter where we grew his grazing mix and supervising while he nibbled.
As for his eyes, they were never really swollen shut or closed much beyond when he was sleeping/basking, etc
There was a very similar case just last month with another Eastern Hermann’s hatchling as discussed in this thread: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-hermans-stopped-eating-red-spots-on-shell.156781/
Therapeutic:
15-30 min soaks upped to twice a day when not appearing to poop and upped to 45 mins to 1 hour 2x/day when he started also appearing very lethargic. One of the 2 daily soaks was with 3-4 drops of VitaSol. Water temp for baths again started at approximately 95-100 degrees, placed under a MVB and dome, dropping to 84-88. Also, he appeared to bubble at the nostrils just a little bit during and right after these more recent warm soaks but otherwise not at all that I noticed. During one soak a couple days ago, I did hear a crackling noise, but again this appeared to subside completely once he was out of his longer, warm soak.
On the 4th day of no observed eating/pooping and lethargy, I began carrot baby food soaks as outlined here on the forum. Yesterday, on the 2nd day and during the baby food soak just before he passed away I noticed his mouth opening and closing under the water. Again, I made sure the level was not too deep and not covering his nostrils. I also noticed him abruptly and very sharply draw his head in for no apparent reason. It’s upsetting for me to think now that this was him in his death throes and I do hope he didn’t suffer too much.
I realize I have been a bit clinical and long-winded here but in memory of Tuga I really wanted to be comprehensive and give as much information as possible. Again, this has been pretty heartbreaking for my family and I so writing this all out has also been helpful. Thank you again for taking the time to read this. We greatly look forward to and appreciate any support.
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