A Petition to stop selling wild caught Russians !!! PLEASE SIGN

[Neal]

I assume this petition is only intended to go to the executives at Petco or Petsmart and not any sort of government body?

I really think this type of thing does a disservice to the hobby. I've said before that I think Petco and Petsmart are great resources to introduce people to the tortoises, despite the housing conditions they keep the tortoises in. As was said in another post, why not try to gear this type of thing at educating the executives at these retail pet stores enough to make changes to the way they house their tortoises? I'm a little concerned at the precedent this might set for other groups and organizations completely against keeping any type of domestic animal.

 

[cemmons12]

Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???

By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.

There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.

As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?

Well that makes good sense Tom. Sometimes we just want to help our shelled friends so badly that we may do the wrong thing to try and help them. Guess we learn from our mistakes. But one thing I was thinking is that there are so many breeders now that I feel like they could get the ones they want to sell from them now a days. And the biggest problem I see is that they need to really learn how to take proper care of them and then they could give care sheets to the buyers. I wish this would happen anyways... Have a good day!

 

[Tom]

Chris, they do give out care sheets, but different people do it different ways. Some "expert" told them that tortoises should be housed on calcisand, given those death trap water bowls and housed all together regardless of species or origin. I think Neal's suggestion of educating these people is the way to go, and all this effort and energy should be spent trying to achieve that.

And Russians can be tricky to breed. Even for the people who have success, each female only produces a few babies a year. There is nowhere near enough captive breeding here in the states to meet the demand. I wish there was and I'm laying the foundation to start making my contribution right now. When I'm ready to start I'm going to need to be able to get the foundation stock. If the animal rightists of the world are successful, I will have to run around buying up all the captive bred babies I can find and then wait a decade for them to reach maturity and start producing.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

It kinda goes back to another discussion I recall. I believe it was Tom, maybe it was Mark or Neal...I can't remember...anyway

Instead of focusing on things we really have no chance of changing (i.e. overturning the gigantic machine that is the pet trade, of which Petco and Petsmart are just two cogs), let's focus on what we can change; the things right in front of us: the petstores in our communities, the tortoise keepers in our communities, educating both groups about proper husbandry and care.

Even if by some insane act of God, you managed to get two big chain pet supply companies to stop purchasing WC stock and only purchase CBB, collectors in other countries will STILL collect those animals. They will simply go to other dealers, other smaller chain pet stores, as well as the food and skin trade. You going to take on those monsters, too?

 

[cemmons12]

Chris, they do give out care sheets, but different people do it different ways. Some "expert" told them that tortoises should be housed on calcisand, given those death trap water bowls and housed all together regardless of species or origin. I think Neal's suggestion of educating these people is the way to go, and all this effort and energy should be spent trying to achieve that.

And Russians can be tricky to breed. Even for the people who have success, each female only produces a few babies a year. There is nowhere near enough captive breeding here in the states to meet the demand. I wish there was and I'm laying the foundation to start making my contribution right now. When I'm ready to start I'm going to need to be able to get the foundation stock. If the animal rightists of the world are successful, I will have to run around buying up all the captive bred babies I can find and then wait a decade for them to reach maturity and start producing.

Sound very good Tom! I hope it all works out very good! We dont have one of the pet stores that the petition is aimed at, we have a Speck's. And they have no idea how to care for them and they dont give out care sheets. Last time they had a Sulcata there I spoke with the lady manager about the proper care and told her of this forum in hopes that she would maybe, just maybe, get on here and read just a little. Then the Uncle Bills pet store had 2 Russians that had no heat or light at all (yet they were in a very nice Vision cage) and they were only feeding them some kind of stuff in a can. Of course I pitched a b*tch about the poor care and he had an excuse for the heat and lights being out. They all just went out that morning. Very aggravating to me. If I had the money at the time I would have got them out of there. And just to be clear to everyone, I am not trying to argue with Tom, just wanted to make that clear considering I really like Tom and value his words very much and also go by his care standards.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

If I had the money at the time I would have got them out of there.

To be honest, this is one of the worst things to do. Sure, you might have rescued THOSE tortoises from a bad situation, in essence you have done exactly what the pet store wants people to do: buy the tortoise from the pet store. They will simply order more tortoises to replace the ones just bought.

Here's a helpful thread I posted not long ago about this subject: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-How-to-Deal-with-Bad-Pet-Shops-Zoos-etc#axzz26I2roqJh

 

[taytay3391]

I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!

You were lucky. That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.

 

[taytay3391]

You were lucky. That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.

So I've heard. That's why I was so surprised when people were always so down on petco. Yes, they don't keep them there properly but he and another guy when I went in always helped me correctly.

 

[Kerryann]

I bought my Russian from petco and they actually told me everything right... Coco substrate, heat lamp, uv bulb, water, calcium, food and soaks. The guy there knew what he was talking about and I wouldn't want to stop them from selling torts. Wild caught or not. It's probably one of the cheapest and easiest way as a college student to get a Russian. She was on sale because it was reptile appreciation so I got her for $50. They told me I could buy a big aquarium but a rubber tote would be better. Maybe it's cause I'm from little ol' Iowa but petco helped me tons!

You were lucky. That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.

What's odd to me is that both Petsmarts near my house are pretty knowledgeable about the different tortoises they carry. They actually have always been able to answer my questions and have been right according to what I read on here for the basics.
My Russian was purchased from a small privately owned pet shop and her previous owner was told she could keep her in a hamster cage (9 in wide by like a 1 1/2 ft wide), on a mix of alfalfa pellets and crushed walnut, never was told to have a uvb lamp, used a standard 60 watt bulb as a heat lamp, and fed her only green and red leaf lettuces with no supplements.
I think to target petsmart and petcos only is short sighted and probably more harmful than good in the long run.

 

[Jacqui]

You were lucky. That employee was a diamond in the rough. Most employees of either company wouldn't know that much about the animal and/or actually tell you to set-up it up with products acquired elsewhere for cheaper instead of buying everything there at their store.

See some times I really wonder about this kind of statement. I always had good luck at my area stores (within 100 miles of my home). When I was out on the road, we stopped often at stores in various states and the thing I found strange is they too had good people and nice clean setups with healthy animals. I have not yet stumbled across these "bad" stores with untrained folks at these two large chains. I will say I have found some nasty mom and pop type stores where I wanted a shower before getting back into our truck.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I think to target petsmart and petcos only is short sighted and probably more harmful than good in the long run.

I agree to an extent. As with taytay's experience, not every single petco and petsmart is horrible. There are exceptions. And likewise, not every local mom-n-pop store is wonderful, either.

But the thing is, the exceptions only arise when you have the occasional employee who is a genuine reptile enthusiast, and/or management/staff that genuinely cares about the animals more than just adhering to policy and keeping their jobs and staying out of trouble. Sadly, these cases are the minority, not the norm. These big-chain stores have high turnover rates. Managers get promoted and move on, sometimes to another dept or another store altogether. That diamond-in-the-rough employee may graduate and move away...or get fired. What are the odds of another knowledgeable herp hobbyist taking their place?

Many cities and towns don't have a local mom/pop shop pet store, and only have a Petsmart or a Petco. That is why those two companies get targeted more often than others. They are at the forefront of the pet hobby. They're where most new pet owners go to find new pets...of any kind. It behooves them to be held accountable for their husbandry practices, because really, they are responsible for many hobbyists' first pet reptile.

---

See some times I really wonder about this kind of statement. I always had good luck at my area stores (within 100 miles of my home). When I was out on the road, we stopped often at stores in various states and the thing I found strange is they too had good people and nice clean setups with healthy animals. I have not yet stumbled across these "bad" stores with untrained folks at these two large chains. I will say I have found some nasty mom and pop type stores where I wanted a shower before getting back into our truck.

I can only comment on stores that I have personally witnessed. Maybe pet stores in the South generally suck worse than elsewhere in the U.S.

And for the record, I've been to stores in Alabama, TN, FL, GA, and this includes Petsmart, PETCO, Pet Supplies Plus, Petland, and mom/pop shops.

 

[ra94131]

I actually think most, maybe 90%, of ALL pet stores I've visited have had issues that really put me off. Many just bite off more than they can chew with the variety the attempt to offer. (This applies to the chains and the single location stores.)

I will say both the best and the worst pet stores I've ever visited have been "mom and pop" locations. I think the chains tend to hover around the middle and are mostly consistent, though there are definitely stand outs. (Good and bad.)

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

And of course, every store has their strengths and weaknesses, too. Some stores take good care of small animals and birds, but fail with fish and reptiles. sometimes its the other way around. Personally, that is why I prefer specialty mom-and-pop shops over the generalized pet supply store that tries to carry a little bit of everything, but specializes in nothing. At least Petsmart to some degree draws a line and tries to offer only "beginner" herps. You won't see green iguanas, savannah monitors, red-tailed boas, or retic pythons at a Petsmart.

 

[taytay3391]

I've got to say I don't like peatland. There was one near me for a while until it got shut down cause their poor little puppies came from puppy mills. I'm not sure what it's like at other petcos but the ones near me have reptile specialists. Same as they have dog trainers and pretty sure they have like a rodent person. But these people have to be knowledgable about their area. So maybe that's why the petcos around me are good?

 

[Jacqui]

I can only comment on stores that I have personally witnessed. Maybe pet stores in the South generally suck worse than elsewhere in the U.S.

And for the record, I've been to stores in Alabama, TN, FL, GA, and this includes Petsmart, PETCO, Pet Supplies Plus, Petland, and mom/pop shops.

Not wanting to say any negative about the south, but perhaps your right. I can't recall if any of the ones I went to were in 'Bama or TN. My husband could no doubt tell you not only all the states, but even towns I dragged him to pet stores in. Off the top of my head without taking time to really think back, it would be: NE, IA, SD, WI, FL, IL, PA, UT, MO, KS, OK, CA, NV, NM, AZ, and TX and either NC or SC, who knows maybe both.

---

I will say both the best and the worst pet stores I've ever visited have been "mom and pop" locations. I think the chains tend to hover around the middle and are mostly consistent, though there are definitely stand outs. (Good and bad.)

I have to agree with this.

---

I also very strongly agree with most of the points Tom made awhile back on this thread. I know I buy WC tortoises because for one thing, I will not penalizie the innocent one that has already been captured to maybe keep another one from the same fate. I will instead try to allow the one that has been caught, to live the rest of it's life as near to what in my limited knowledge and limited means I can, a natural, healthy, and "happy" way. I will hopefully have the end result in producing young from these animals, so their genes are not just tossed into the trash can as they would if I ignored that animal's individual plight. Those to whom I can not personally help, then I will be on places like this helping the people who do take up this animal's challenge to do so as correctly as I can share with them.

I, as with many in here, would and should find it hypocritical to sign this petition, as I myself personally own WC animals.

 

[GeoTerraTestudo]

I think the petition we should be signing is the one to Central Asian governments to get them to outlaw the collection of wild animals for the pet trade, including Russian tortoises.

 

[terryo]

Have you all gone mad? Isn't it enought that the government wants to ban everything and take our pets away and now you want to HELP them do it???

By all means take steps to ensure that all imported and captive bred animals are well cared for and housed properly, but this is a lot of misguided emotion, albeit with good intentions.

There is nothing wrong with importing farmed or wild caught tortoises. NONE of us would have ANY tortoises if wild caughts were not allowed. We can all agree that they should be collected and shipped better. We can all agree that there should be a limit on how many can be taken from the wild annually, but good lord, trying to make people NOT be able to sell them anymore? How many fewer people would be in to tortoises if you couldn't go buy one from a pet store. Thats where I got my first turtle. It was a western box turtle way back in 1979 and I'm pretty sure it was wild caught. How different would the tortoise world be if me, and thousands of others like me, had never gotten in to tortoises because they weren't readily available.

As Mike pointed out, that petition is full of all sorts of speculation and misinformation. If someone wants to start a petition asking the chain pet stores to house, feed and care for their tortoises better, I will gladly sign up and even help out. This petition on the other hand goes way too far. Pryncesssc, does your friend have a large colony of captive bred Russians the are producing lots of babies to help fill the void of the ones that he/she proposes not be imported or sold?

Finally....thank you Tom. I agree 100%.

 

[CourtneyAndCarl]

There are very few petstores where people are telling you wrong info on PURPOSE to get you to spend more money. And even then that's more individuals than the entire workforce of that particular store. But Petco and Petsmart hire people based on their people skills and not their animal knowledge, that they can give them a thin sampling of later on. They tell us in training very VERY little, and the rest comes from knowledge or being told by another employee. If a Petco/smart is run by a bunch of people that know nothing about animals, than odds are their animals are going to be poorly cared for and wrong info is going to be thrown out at random, etc.

At any rate, the only terrible experience I've ever had in a petshop was a mom and pop store.... they had a cockatiel that had a broken wing for 3 months on sale until it finally died... kept probably 30-40 baby aquatic turtles of differing species and sizes in a 20 gallon tank... had a juvenile alligator in a 30 gallon tank... I also remember them having a half grown sulcata in a five foot baby pool "by the window" to get UVB (which of course didn't strike me as stupid until after I got my tortoise several years later). The owner was the biggest idiot on the planet and knew nothing about animals. He hired two brothers that knew only about fish, who finally quit, and he went out of business. The brothers now run an amazing fish shop here in Omaha, and a really good one at that, and the idiotic pet store owner is nowhere to be found after his SECOND attempt at a mom and pop petstore failed.

 

[fbsmith3]

I signed but you all make very good points. Maybe Petco will better care for the animals they have in stock.