A Long Forsten Tale of Woe, but with a silver lining...?

[Sara G.]

Hello Forsten fans!

Over this summer (the second the weather turns warm enough, right now it's a delightful 36F in NY ) I am going to be adopting a Forsten tortoise. Her name's BamBam and I only realized that she was a Forsten maybe two years ago. Until that point all I was told was that she was an "Asian Forest Tortoise" which isn't exactly descriptive. I'm estimating she's about 30 years or so, though I don't have an exact age, and she's been living at the pet store that I used to work at (she's not for sale and is in an okay-sized enclosure there, not as big as I would like but it's not horrible and I make sure she gets the best possible diet and I go by the store 3x's a week to check on her). I'm fairly certain she's lived at the store for about 10 years of her life. Which really upsets me actually, because she needs much more space than she's got right now. She needs her retirement dang-it!
I usually try to take her over the summer but never set up a big enclosure. I have an acre of land that's fenced in, so I'd sit outside with her for a few hours while she got plenty of time to soak up the sun and walk around and then bring her inside at night. But that's not safe for her or convenient for me and I want to be able to leave her unattended when I'm at work (provided the weather's okay).

Unfortunately I don't have the space for a full indoor set up as of right now but in about a year my family & I are going to be moving to our house in Florida so she can be outside 24/7 down there (provided the weather's warm enough). I know, the situation does not sound good but I want to give her the best I can once the weather warms up. The second there's no snow on the ground I'm going to get building and have the plants put in, etc.

So, I'm taking her for the summer and that will give me enough time to finagle a good sized indoor set up for her for her last cold winter months in NY before the big move.
My question, is a 13'x13' enclosure outdoors a decent size? Is that considered too small for her? She'd not terribly active but I think that's just because she doesn't have a mass amount of walking around room right now. Plus from what I understand is that Forstens usually become active just around dawn and dusk so that might be why.
She's a fantastic tortoise and over the years I've maintained her diet pretty well (recently tried cactus pads with her but she wasn't crazy about them. I'll try aloe tomorrow, she loves strawberries and actually likes mango too though she doesn't get that too often), although she's gotten a bit more zoo med tortoise diet than I'd prefer, and I'm going to add some plants to her enclosure at the store. I think the size she's in now is a 5'x5' (ew, small!).

So, does 13'x13' seem okay if it's heavily planted and lots of broken up sight lines? Are there any good plant recommendations? I've got Bolivian elephant ear, boston ferns, hibiscus, dandelions, and a seed mix from the tortoise supply on my list. And of course she'll have a good terra cotta water dish and plenty of hides. Should I put fencing down along the edges? She doesn't seem like she has much desire to dig but I don't know how she'll be once she's got more walking around room. Should I have a top on it? We don't really have any predators, I have 3 cats and a very small dog who doesn't even jump. I was planning on making the sides about 2' high which wouldn't even allow him to look in and see BamBam. But still, I'd hate for an accident to happen where a neighbor's dog somehow got into the yard or something, or even if my dog somehow got in. Am I being paranoid or should I definitely put a top on the enclosure?

Also, another issue I'll likely have is if we have some cold summer days here. I know Forstens don't really tolerate (and shouldn't be put in) anything under 65F. So I'll need some form of indoor enclosure for her. But as I've said, I really don't have a lot of room (I've got a 65 Red Eared Slider tank that takes up a good chuck of the possible room for her). I could maybe manage a 4'x3' enclosure which I know is still painfully small, and actually smaller than what she's in now.

Anyway, you guys are the best at Forsten info and though I've lurked on this form for quite a while learning all I possibly can about Forstens, I figured I should ask the important questions as the weather starts to warm up.
Thanks so much everyone! I know her situation right now is pretty awful and I want to get her into a better home asap. I'm a little trapped between a rock and a hard place (aka the snow covering my backyard). Also sorry about the essay and a half here. There's a lot of info about this lovely tortoise and she's pretty important to me (despite the fact that she doesn't live with me, yet).

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Oooh, an old Forsten's - how lucky! I can't wait to see photos! How big is she?

13'x13' for a solo Indotestudo is probably better than most have. I assume Forsten's are decent climbers like elongata - make sure you don't have any plants near the walls that could be climbed if pushed over. I am always impressed at what my elongated can climb if he really wants to. Climbing would be my concern rather than digging. 4x3' is quite small if this will be her habitat for months at a time, but if it's really your only option, it is what it is (and it will be temporary).

It sounds like you'll provide her a better life than she has had by a big margin. A well planted yard in Florida sounds ideal.

 

[Sara G.]

She's probably around 9" long. I have some kinda bad photos that someone at the store took and set over to me. They're old though, easily 4 years old or so. She looks much better now (And of course I was irked to see that she was on the cold floor like that, especially being fed there, so that doesn't happen much anymore).

So, should I try for the sides to be even higher than 2'? I'll definitely keep the plants away from the sides. Should I have caps on the corners like a lot of people do with Russians?

I know, I hate having her in something so small. I want her to have all the room she could possibly want (within safe reasons of course)! Her area in FL will probably be even bigger than 13'x13', I'd like to go for something like 25'x25' but we'll see.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

What a beauty. I'm looking forward to seeing more of this one.

I would cap the corners. They're not as adept at climbing as Russians but still can be quite determined.

 

[Sara G.]

Yeah, I'll be splurging on photos of her all summer long. When I stop by the store on Wednesday I'll try to get some good pics of her.

Okay, I'll cap the corners. Thank you!

 

[tortadise]

They're incredibly good at digging to believe it or not. All of our forstens are kept separate but will excavate and tunnel to each other's enclosure side by side. So make sure to burry the walls below the ground too. A 13x13 is good. They're very territorial so prefer large spaces. Nice animal.

 

[Sara G.]

How far below do you think? What do you use? A chicken-wire type set up underneath, or just have the wood walls go down further?

Are there any good materials that hold up better outside? I was thinking of just going to the lumber yard and seeing what they've got (my dad does construction so I'm not too worried about price or actually building it) but is there a better option?

 

[wellington]

Nice that you have been giving her such good care even though you no longer work there. For your colder summer days you could build a heated box for her to go into same for when you make your move to Florida. 13x13 sounds pretty good, of course the bigger the better same with inside, do as big as you can. In the long runner life will be better with you even if she has to put up with smaller quarters for a winter or two.

 

[Sara G.]

Yeah she's got a special place in my heart. And, it's kinda cute, I think she recognizes me more than anyone else. She comes over when I talk to her and with everyone else she doesn't. Guess I'm the better food source.
A heated box sounds perfect for FL. It might be pretty good to have for the colder summer days here as well. I wish I had more room indoors for her, but as long as she doesn't mind keeping up with cramped indoor quarters for a little while longer, she'll have a tropical paradise soon enough.

 

[Sara G.]

I have a question about night boxes. How big should I make it? I'm thinking that based off possible lumber I can get (making it easy and not cutting existing pieces) I am probably gonna make her outside enclosure 16'x12', a little bigger than the original plan but that's far from being a bad thing. I've read up on a couple of the forms that the night box should be something of an equivalent of a bed to us humans, like a very roomy burrow almost. I was thinking about 3'x3'. Is this too big? Not big enough?
Also, I'm definitely going to have it insulated but should I put a heater in it as well? It's likely only going to be used for cold summer nights (although if I could make a permeant outdoor enclosure for her that would be great so she wouldn't be cooped up in the winter, but that's another post all in its own).

 

[Sara G.]

 

[Sara G.]

So, I gave BamBam a good long soak today, she's a really good soaker but it's been pretty dry lately so I wanted to give her a bath anyway. And that's when I noticed something kinda worrying with her shell. It almost looks as if it had gotten smashed at some point. It's so hard to get a decent picture of it. I'll try to get better pics on Monday but should I be really worried about this? We have a pretty good vet who deals with exotics nearby so if I have to I can bring her to the vet and get her checked out but I wanted to ask you guys about it. It didn't feel spongy or soft at all but still, it looks like a pretty significant amount of damage to her shell. But at the same time it looks like a moderately old injury. I'm so ashamed that I hadn't noticed it before now.
Thanks in advance everyone!

 

[Turtlepete]

I have 2.2 forstenii at the moment, so I'll try to answer your questions based on my limited experience with them. 13x13 is more than enough. Mine are not terribly active, and they live in a heavily planted pen in warm, sunny south Florida. They are kept in roughly 8x8 pens as pairs. When kept as singles they live in 4x8 pens, and this does very well. It's plenty of space to create a nice habitat; a nice pool to soak in, several large ferns and two hides. I find that they thrive much better in these smaller setups than when I initially kept just 1.1 in a 20x8 habitat. In my experience, the sentiment that "bigger is always better" is not always true.

As far as weather in Florida, I live in southern Florida near Miami and I still keep them indoors for a portion of the year. Anything under 70 and they stop eating and stop moving, so once the weather starts cooling I bring them in and they live in small 3x4 indoor pens. This year seems to be an exceptionally cold and prolonged winter, but I try to put them out on the rare afternoons when the temperature exceeds 75-80. I wouldn't recommend a heated night box. Build decent indoor quarters if you have the space so she can live comfortably indoors for a few weeks at a time when needed.

As far as the shell, I don't notice anything but it's likely nothing to worry about. I would wager she is WC, and the shells on WC animals are always dinged up. I have several Asian taxa that had been chewed on by dogs, and one has a very rough plastron. Old injuries aren't anything to worry about.

 

[Sara G.]

Thank you so much! Okay good, I'm glad to hear that about the size requirements for them. This whole time I've been worrying over how much space she could have. I think the set up she's going to have for outdoors is going to be 16'x12'. I could always make it smaller but I thought that would be a decent size for her since I was going to try to keep it heavily planted.

Good to know about FL. We've got a house in Melbourne Beach so that's where she'll be leaving in roughly a year or so. I'll probably have a small indoors enclosure for her there as well, but I was thinking about a possible outdoor greenhouse set up. I've heard people have had success with those but then again I haven't heard anything about them being used for Forsten's.

Okay good, she's definitely WC. I mean she's roughly 30, I'm guessing, and I get the feeling that her original owner must've got her WC. He seemed to love unique animal species (other tortoises, monitor lizards, big birds, etc) so odds are she's WC. Another thing I noticed is that her shell seemed really dry. I don't know if I should worry about that or not but since you've got Forsten's I figured I'd ask if I should put something on her shell or just give her extra soaks?

 

[Sara G.]

Well, BamBam's officially at my house full time now . Her enclosure is smaller than the one she had at the pet store but it's a closed chamber so I can properly monitor temps and humidity for her. Right now I have a humidity of 72% and the ambient temp is about 81*. She has a basking spot of 90* and under her hut it's about 76*-78*.
I'll post pictures of her enclosure. I know it's WAY too small for her, at least for my standards. I think it's 4.5'x2' and once it's finally warm enough she'll go outside (and come inside at night of course). I haven't started building her outdoor enclosure yet but it's gonna happen soon.
I have some spider plants in her enclosure and she enjoys chomping on those, I did put in a very tiny jade plant baby in there but she's ignored it for the most part. And I just added some dandelions to her enclosure. All of that is just to give her something to do. I'd like to get more plants in there and I have seeds growing and plants transferred over into good soil from local nurseries so I'm working on it. I ordered two dwarf mulberry trees too so that'll be good and I'm trying to grow pansies amongst other things as treats for her.
I give her roughly two half hour soaks a week but I'm thinking about upping that to 3-4x's a week. I actually used cold pressed unrefined extra virgin coconut oil on her shell and wiped it off. Her shell looks amazing and I think she feels better (at least I do now that her shell doesn't look so painfully dry).
She's eating A LOT. I'm really pleased that I have no food issues with her. I'm trying to get rid of so much store bought foods (red leaf lettuce, butter lettuce, endive, the occasional strawberry and a bit of mango) and finally we've got some weeds growing around though with the cold burst we've got this week, I hope that doesn't destroy any new growth around . I think she ate a few soaked Mazuri pellets but she wasn't a huge fan of them. And today she had plenty of dandelion greens along with some spring mix and other stuff.

 

[Sara G.]

The first pic is her in her old enclosure the day I put the coconut oil on her shell. So shiny and pretty!

 

[Sara G.]

View attachment 169472 View attachment 169473

 

[Sara G.]

I removed the tiny hut simply because she couldn't turn around in it. I would like to put a front on this new one so it's more of a burrow for her but for the time being I piled the sides high with sphagnum moss (not shown).
The whole thing is actually a deck box designed to put cushions in outside so they don't get wet. Then (with the help of my carpentry-inclined parents) we cut a hole in the front for a window. It's plexiglass so it scratches super easily but she can't really see out of it or scratch it. It's really just for me to be able to see inside it without constantly opening the top of it and letting the humidity and heat out.
The lights are secured with screw in wire holders so the top is neat and clean. The tin foil was an extra precaution. I have a 100 watt MVB bulb on the right and a 100 watt CHE on the right hooked up with a thermostat set to 82*. I have a humidistat in there so I can check the humidity and the temps.
I think for the most part she's happy with it. At least now she can get a proper diet and humidity levels.
She has a cuttlebone that she nibbles on occasionally and she can get into her water dish easily which I change every day because it gets dirty and muddy by the end of the day. I'm debating on changing the water dish simply because it's her old one from the pet store and the high sides worry me as a flip hazard. What do you think?
I've noticed that she likes to sit under her basking light which seems a little strange since I know Forsten's aren't fond of bright lights. She likes to sit just beside the water dish in that little area. Maybe it's because she hasn't had really any decent UVB in many years? Or maybe just because it's a new tank and that's her favorite spot. I thought maybe under her hut was too cold but 76*-78* doesn't seem that bad at all.
My only concern is that I haven't seen her poop. This is her third day in the new tank but I had her in an absolutely awful duel rubbermaid container thing. There was no way of keeping the humidity in and it looked awful. But even before that I noticed that she hadn't really pooped. Of course it could be that I didn't see it in time and she ate it but I'm not sure about that. I was hoping that she'd poop in one of her soaks but no such luck with that one. I'll keep checking though. Maybe it's because her diet went from 50% pellets and 50% greens (if they even remembered to feed her ) to almost 100% greens/weeds that her body's just going through the change of having decent food. Maybe I'll add some protein over the next few days and see how that goes. Hardboiled eggs maybe?

 

[Sara G.]

Ugh, also sorry for the duplicate pics. Apparently I uploaded doubles instead of the other pics I wanted to add.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

What a beauty!

Yes, the enclosure is too small, but it's a fine temporary home.

That's really a lovely looking specimen. Congrats!