A life time of dreaming became a reality!

[ogmoses]

I don't agree with raising babies that way. Outside in the SoCal sun all day for them is not good. Its not good for any species. I've done many experiments with several species testing these theories. The best thing you could do for that baby is set it up indoors in a big closed chamber and give it some outside time daily for an hour or two. In time you can leave it out longer and longer. Eventually it will be fine to live outside full time with a heated night shelter.

Its also too cold fro that baby to be outside at 7am. Its getting into the 50s here every night, even though day time highs are in the mid to high 90's. I don't put my young ones out until 9 or 10.

Sand should never be used as a substrate. Not even as part of a mix. I would use orchid bark. You can get it in bulk at a garden center.

Wow! Ok thanks for the substrate tip will do.
1. Not sure what part of SoCal you are from but 50's at 7am never!!!!!
Chino hill please look it up! 65plus at 7am
2. So you are saying a cycle of artificial light as a day time cycle?
Never heard of this! Do you have a galap? And if so this didn't effect it's growth?

Please keep in mind his outside box has shade and sun. 8x6 with boxes hides and plenty of shade!

The winter time will be something else completely but for now I will take advantage of the sun!

I'm very curious what ill affects does the natural sunlight have on the tortoise. You said you have done research on the ill effects of natural sunlight?

 

[ogmoses]

I would suggest not mixing it with your Aldabra either. They are from two different completely Eco-Zones/Islands - even being captive bred babies.

Thanks for the input!
The Aldabra is push 25lbs plus not where I said I would but them together. Big size difference. But ultimately they will be out in the same Eco-zone proper heat will be used as it is for the Aldabra but 100% on SoCal sun.

 

[Tom]

Wow! Ok thanks for the substrate tip will do.
1. Not sure what part of SoCal you are from but 50's at 7am never!!!!!
Chino hill please look it up! 65plus at 7am
2. So you are saying a cycle of artificial light as a day time cycle?
Never heard of this! Do you have a galap? And if so this didn't effect it's growth?

Please keep in mind his outside box has shade and sun. 8x6 with boxes hides and plenty of shade!

The winter time will be something else completely but for now I will take advantage of the sun!

I'm very curious what ill affects does the natural sunlight have on the tortoise. You said you have done research on the ill effects of natural sunlight?

1. Our climates are very similar. I'm only one hour away from you to the West. My best friend lived in Chino Hills for 15 years. Your night temps have been getting down to the high 50's and low 60's. Too cold for a baby.
2. I am saying babies do not do as well when raised outside all day long. They thrive and do better when kept indoors in a proper set up most of the time. Yes this affects their growth. Tremendously. Babies grown outside in SoCal grow much slower when fed the same amount of food, and they tend to pyramid much more. I do not have a Galop, but several friends do. Upon seeing my set up and results, several of them have asked me to start their babies for them.
3. I didn't say natural sunlight has "ill effects". I said raising them outside all day is not good for them and they do better when they are inside most of the day and night until they get bigger. I've reached this conclusion by raising groups of clutch mates side by side with different variables. One such variable was outside all day vs. mostly indoors. The indoor group grew at two to three times the rate on the same amount or less food, and the indoor group did not pyramid at all, while the outdoor group had noticeable pyramiding.

This is not new info. We've been talking about it here on this forum for many years now.

My hope in telling this is that you will reconsider your baby rearing strategy before the damage is done. Please ask for clarification. I'm happy to share.

 

[ogmoses]

1. Our climates are very similar. I'm only one hour away from you to the West. My best friend lived in Chino Hills for 15 years. Your night temps have been getting down to the high 50's and low 60's. Too cold for a baby.
2. I am saying babies do not do as well when raised outside all day long. They thrive and do better when kept indoors in a proper set up most of the time. Yes this affects their growth. Tremendously. Babies grown outside in SoCal grow much slower when fed the same amount of food, and they tend to pyramid much more. I do not have a Galop, but several friends do. Upon seeing my set up and results, several of them have asked me to start their babies for them.
3. I didn't say natural sunlight has "ill effects". I said raising them outside all day is not good for them and they do better when they are inside most of the day and night until they get bigger. I've reached this conclusion by raising groups of clutch mates side by side with different variables. One such variable was outside all day vs. mostly indoors. The indoor group grew at two to three times the rate on the same amount or less food, and the indoor group did not pyramid at all, while the outdoor group had noticeable pyramiding.

This is not new info. We've been talking about it here on this forum for many years now.

My hope in telling this is that you will reconsider your baby rearing strategy before the damage is done. Please ask for clarification. I'm happy to share.

No no by all means this is perfect have always thought the compels opposite! Pyramiding was a caused by inporoper humidity and lack of natural sun light!

Can you share some photos of your indoor chamber also type of lights used?

Anyone with galaps doing this?

 

[ogmoses]

Also tom how long before you start leaving them outside

Thanks for all the info

 

[Gillian M]

A gorgeous tort. GOD bless.

 

[wellington]

I still have my Aldabra he will never leave our family Not sure I ever said I didn't have room. I have enough for both, although I will have to split the yard. My house was was brand new when we bought it and I constructed the back yard to allow for Giant tortoise knowing I would get an Aldabra or two. The flower bed is raised to allow a nice green border. I have room on both sides as well for night pens they are 6x12' when they are old enough "big enough" I would like to use that for the baby but being on the side of the house it does not get enough light for know Sheldon is in a 6x4' beautifully constructed night house using Brazilian cherry wood and about 6-7" of sand!
Trust me the galap was not an impulse buy. It's was planned for a very long time.

I thought in the other thread when you were asking if they could go together, you had said you weren't sure you had room for both if splitting the yard. My fault, you may not have. You do have a nice beautiful yard, the portion that was in the pick. Didn't mean to make you feel you had to explain in detail either. Sorry, but did enjoy it. Glad you didn't give up the Aldabra. Don't forget to keep updates, with pics, love pics. Even enclosure, it's nice to see what others do for ideas.

 

[wellington]

Also because of the size difference I don't think they can be together "even if they get along" for a very long time.

No, they shouldn't and can't. You know that though.

 

[Tom]

No no by all means this is perfect have always thought the compels opposite! Pyramiding was a caused by inporoper humidity and lack of natural sun light!

Can you share some photos of your indoor chamber also type of lights used?

Anyone with galaps doing this?

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It has nothing to do with sunshine, UV, diet or calcium. Those things are all needed to prevent MBD and grow a healthy tortoise, but they don't cause or prevent pyramiding. Check these out if you want more info about this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
I'm now raising babies from these tortoises.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
I now have three clutches from each of these girls in the cooler and incubators right now. Hopefully babies will hatch in another 6 weeks.

If your baby gets outside for an hour or two a day just a couple of times a week, you will not need any indoor artificial UV source. Just heating and lighting. If you baby goes outside for an hour every day, then you'll really be doing well.

Here is one of my older closed chambers:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Here is another closed chamber. I wasn't happy with the results of the experiment, so don't attempt the imitate the heating and lighting here, but the enclosure itself is good.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

This is THE BEST closed chamber configuration I've ever seen:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/our-new-closed-chamber-for-our-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/

Here are Dean's results using similar methods in a climate that is even drier and more extreme than yours and mine:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/

I know what Fife and some of the other AZ breeders will tell you. I meet with them every year and I've toured Jerry's place and put my hands on the adults that produced your baby. They are doing it the old school way, and they have not tried to do it my way yet. Some of them will tell you horror stories about how awful their results have been. One breeder who is a very nice guy, but just cites practical reasons for not changing his ways, told me a story about how half of his leopard tortoise hold back died and the half that lived pyramided horribly and were "grotesquely" disfigured. We had a long conversation and he was telling me this after I showed him the same pics in the links I just showed you. He had over a thousand hatchling sulcatas in tubs being raised "outside full time in the AZ sunshine", and a couple of friends who were on the tour stopped counting at about 2 dozen dead babies in the sunning tubs.

@N2TORTS is raising a baby Galop, and I believe his baby initially spent lots of time in a closed chamber. His area is not so extremely dry, like our areas are, and with water features, lots of greenery and lots of effort, he is able to maintain and breed a very healthy colony of RedFoot tortoises at his place too. JD, will you share your thoughts and techniques?

I'm thrilled that you are receptive to these words. Once the damage is done it cannot be undone, so prevention is the key.

For sulcatas, I don't leave them outside all day until they are around 6inches or more, but they still come inside at night and sleep in closed chambers. On days that are too hot or too cold, they stay inside in their closed chambers all day. For a Galop I would wait even longer to leave them out all day, and once I did move them outside full time, I'd find a way to add humidity to their heated night box.

Remember that what works in AZ, does not always work here. Our climate is different and the difference affects the tortoises in a negative way.

There is a lot of info contained in those threads I've linked here. I hope you enjoy it and learn a bunch from it. Please come back with more questions.

Also, if you can make it, come join us in Phoenix in November for the TTPG conference and meet Jerry in person, if you haven't already.

 

[ogmoses]

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. It has nothing to do with sunshine, UV, diet or calcium. Those things are all needed to prevent MBD and grow a healthy tortoise, but they don't cause or prevent pyramiding. Check these out if you want more info about this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
I'm now raising babies from these tortoises.

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding-ii-the-leopards.18931/
I now have three clutches from each of these girls in the cooler and incubators right now. Hopefully babies will hatch in another 6 weeks.

If your baby gets outside for an hour or two a day just a couple of times a week, you will not need any indoor artificial UV source. Just heating and lighting. If you baby goes outside for an hour every day, then you'll really be doing well.

Here is one of my older closed chambers:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/closed-chambers.32333/

Here is another closed chamber. I wasn't happy with the results of the experiment, so don't attempt the imitate the heating and lighting here, but the enclosure itself is good.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/2015-growth-experiment.119874/

This is THE BEST closed chamber configuration I've ever seen:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/our-new-closed-chamber-for-our-new-group-of-tortoises.138430/

Here are Dean's results using similar methods in a climate that is even drier and more extreme than yours and mine:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/8-new-babies-from-tom-aka-the-bond-girls-maybe.118641/

I know what Fife and some of the other AZ breeders will tell you. I meet with them every year and I've toured Jerry's place and put my hands on the adults that produced your baby. They are doing it the old school way, and they have not tried to do it my way yet. Some of them will tell you horror stories about how awful their results have been. One breeder who is a very nice guy, but just cites practical reasons for not changing his ways, told me a story about how half of his leopard tortoise hold back died and the half that lived pyramided horribly and were "grotesquely" disfigured. We had a long conversation and he was telling me this after I showed him the same pics in the links I just showed you. He had over a thousand hatchling sulcatas in tubs being raised "outside full time in the AZ sunshine", and a couple of friends who were on the tour stopped counting at about 2 dozen dead babies in the sunning tubs.

@N2TORTS is raising a baby Galop, and I believe his baby initially spent lots of time in a closed chamber. His area is not so extremely dry, like our areas are, and with water features, lots of greenery and lots of effort, he is able to maintain and breed a very healthy colony of RedFoot tortoises at his place too. JD, will you share your thoughts and techniques?

I'm thrilled that you are receptive to these words. Once the damage is done it cannot be undone, so prevention is the key.

For sulcatas, I don't leave them outside all day until they are around 6inches or more, but they still come inside at night and sleep in closed chambers. On days that are too hot or too cold, they stay inside in their closed chambers all day. For a Galop I would wait even longer to leave them out all day, and once I did move them outside full time, I'd find a way to add humidity to their heated night box.

Remember that what works in AZ, does not always work here. Our climate is different and the difference affects the tortoises in a negative way.

There is a lot of info contained in those threads I've linked here. I hope you enjoy it and learn a bunch from it. Please come back with more questions.

Also, if you can make it, come join us in Phoenix in November for the TTPG conference and meet Jerry in person, if you haven't already.

Might you have a moment to call me?
I have some questions I might be conveyed better verbally.
Thanks Moses

 

[Tom]

Might you have a moment to call me?
I have some questions I might be conveyed better verbally.
Thanks Moses

I'd love to! I'll call in a bit after I get the morning routine taken care of.

 

[ogmoses]

A gorgeous tort. GOD bless.

thanks so much

 

[N2TORTS]

Well Tom's right on the money......Your baby needs to be housed in a closed chamber for now , with daily supervised out time adventures. All 3 of us live basically in the same Ecosystem. It does get cold and has been for the last week or so (oh hum...the summer is almost over).
Tyrone.....who I believe now is a Tyress just turned 3 years old this month.
The specs for her at this time are aprox : 14" and 15lbs.,

 

[ogmoses]

I'd love to! I'll call in a bit after I get the morning routine taken care of.

Tom thanks for all your time. i almost hour conversation was very very informative. thank you. looking forward to many more conversations.

 

[ogmoses]

Well Tom's right on the money......Your baby needs to be housed in a closed chamber for now , with daily supervised out time adventures. All 3 of us live basically in the same Ecosystem. It does get cold and has been for the last week or so (oh hum...the summer is almost over).
Tyrone.....who I believe now is a Tyress just turned 3 years old this month.
The specs for her at this time are aprox : 14" and 15lbs.,

Very cool man thanks how big is the Galap pen? does he sleep outdoors?

 

[Pearly]

What a cutie!!! Congratulations! Looking forward to updates and pics

 

[Levi the Leopard]

CHINO HILLS?? My home town! Lived there all my life until I came to Oregon!

 

[ogmoses]

Good morning soak!

 

[ogmoses]

 

[Tidgy's Dad]

I'm the King of the Castle!
Peek a boo!
Lovely.