2 Radiata, 1 not eating

Ghazan

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Picked up 2 radiated torts in August, 1 was 49 grams and 2nd was 38 grams the first day I had them. I think they were born May or June of this year. They've been kept in 4x2 AP cage with basking end around 95 and cool end around 88. At night I turn off all heating and lights, gets to room temp mid-upper 70s. Humidity stays from 60% on the hot side to 80-90% on the cool side with daily misting. I've been giving them baths 3-4x week in the sun 20-30 mins (instead of fitting a UVB). Feeding dandelion, escarole, romaine, collards, OG mazuri 2x/ week, with the occasional fruit treat 1x/week (strawberry, mango, cactus pear).

The bigger one went from 49 grams to 64 grams in a month, the smaller one went from 38 to 37 grams. The smaller guy I noticed past 3 days hasn't been feeding, his last poop was 3 days ago, yellow soft and watery. I separated the two now, I've been giving the small guy carrot/water baths 2x / day. His eyes are open, just weak, not moving a whole lot and not eating. I read Bill and Chris' care sheets...

Am I keeping them too hot? Should I just go for a average temp in the upper 80s during day?
Should I try warm pedialyte soaks?
Should I still be doing the night time cool down to room temp?

Added a pic of my setup...
 

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ALDABRAMAN

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Picked up 2 radiated torts in August

~ Can you share what breeder you purchased from?

~ Have you contacted the breeder and what direction did they offer?

~ We have some fantastic breeders as members on TFO.
 

wellington

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I don't know much about them. However, most tortoises should not have fruit, specially babies. Too much sugar and messes with their gut. I also would not let temps go below 80. Higher humidity and cool temps causes a sick tort.
 

Tom

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Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. One always loses.

With the exception of the forest tort species, tortoises should not be fed fruit. It can wreak havoc with their gut flora and fauna.

Babies under 100 grams should be soaked daily. Bill Z. soaks them every day "religiously" until they are 4 years old.

Any of these things could be contributing factors. All of them together might be enough to cause this baby to fail.

Your temperature and enclosure parameters sound okay to me, but lets run it by someone with much more radiata experience like @zovick and/or @Sterant
 

Sterant

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Tortoises should never be housed in pairs. One always loses.

With the exception of the forest tort species, tortoises should not be fed fruit. It can wreak havoc with their gut flora and fauna.

Babies under 100 grams should be soaked daily. Bill Z. soaks them every day "religiously" until they are 4 years old.

Any of these things could be contributing factors. All of them together might be enough to cause this baby to fail.

Your temperature and enclosure parameters sound okay to me, but lets run it by someone with much more radiata experience like @zovick and/or @Sterant
To address your questions directly (for healthy tortoises)

1) I don't think its too hot. I run my daytime temp around 92 but I don't use separate basking lamps on babies. The only basking they can do is under the UVB and 6500K tubes.

2) Soak them every day in luke-warm water for 20 or 30 minutes.

3)The night drop in temp is fine. I let mine drop into the 70's every night.

Some suggestions - Skip the fruit. No need for it. Just feed as many natural weeds and grasses you can. If you have to use grocery store produce, use spring mix, dandelion greens, endive, opuntia cactus, etc... If you are going to use Mazuri, it is worth the effort to get them used to the LS product. They sell a nice small pellet version that is small enough for babies to eat it whole. just soak it a bit.

Run a UVB bulb in the enclosure. though they are technically getting enough UVB when you put them outside, I think there are benefits to having the UVB spectrum other than just D3 considerations.

A few questions:
1) does the baby in question perk up when you put it outside?
2) Have you had a stool sample checked for parasites?
3) from whom did you get the tortoise?

Dan
 

zovick

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To address your questions directly (for healthy tortoises)

1) I don't think its too hot. I run my daytime temp around 92 but I don't use separate basking lamps on babies. The only basking they can do is under the UVB and 6500K tubes.

2) Soak them every day in luke-warm water for 20 or 30 minutes.

3)The night drop in temp is fine. I let mine drop into the 70's every night.

Some suggestions - Skip the fruit. No need for it. Just feed as many natural weeds and grasses you can. If you have to use grocery store produce, use spring mix, dandelion greens, endive, opuntia cactus, etc... If you are going to use Mazuri, it is worth the effort to get them used to the LS product. They sell a nice small pellet version that is small enough for babies to eat it whole. just soak it a bit.

Run a UVB bulb in the enclosure. though they are technically getting enough UVB when you put them outside, I think there are benefits to having the UVB spectrum other than just D3 considerations.

A few questions:
1) does the baby in question perk up when you put it outside?
2) Have you had a stool sample checked for parasites?
3) from whom did you get the tortoise?

Dan

Everything Dan said is correct. If I read your first post correctly, the only UV they are getting is when you soak them outside for 20-30 minutes three or four times weekly. THAT IS NOT ENOUGH of either soaking time or UV time. I would DEFINITELY add UVB lighting inside their enclosure and do so ASAP and soak DAILY as both Tom and Dan have said.

@Sterant can give you some excellent pointers on which UV bulbs and fixtures to use also since he has set ups exactly like yours. This brings up the point that you will also need a Solarmeter to get the correct amount of UV. Also you should GET ONLY THE SOLARMETER 6.5 MODEL. The other models are not measuring what you need to know.

Good luck.
 

Ghazan

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Everything Dan said is correct. If I read your first post correctly, the only UV they are getting is when you soak them outside for 20-30 minutes three or four times weekly. THAT IS NOT ENOUGH of either soaking time or UV time. I would DEFINITELY add UVB lighting inside their enclosure and do so ASAP and soak DAILY as both Tom and Dan have said.

@Sterant can give you some excellent pointers on which UV bulbs and fixtures to use also since he has set ups exactly like yours. This brings up the point that you will also need a Solarmeter to get the correct amount of UV. Also you should GET ONLY THE SOLARMETER 6.5 MODEL. The other models are not measuring what you need to know.

Good luck.
To address your questions directly (for healthy tortoises)

1) I don't think its too hot. I run my daytime temp around 92 but I don't use separate basking lamps on babies. The only basking they can do is under the UVB and 6500K tubes.

2) Soak them every day in luke-warm water for 20 or 30 minutes.

3)The night drop in temp is fine. I let mine drop into the 70's every night.

Some suggestions - Skip the fruit. No need for it. Just feed as many natural weeds and grasses you can. If you have to use grocery store produce, use spring mix, dandelion greens, endive, opuntia cactus, etc... If you are going to use Mazuri, it is worth the effort to get them used to the LS product. They sell a nice small pellet version that is small enough for babies to eat it whole. just soak it a bit.

Run a UVB bulb in the enclosure. though they are technically getting enough UVB when you put them outside, I think there are benefits to having the UVB spectrum other than just D3 considerations.

A few questions:
1) does the baby in question perk up when you put it outside?
2) Have you had a stool sample checked for parasites?
3) from whom did you get the tortoise?

Dan


I will hold the fruit and soak them twice daily in the mean time. I'll change out the fluorescent tubes to T8 UVB, is 5.0 or 10.0 needed? The bulbs are less than 10 inches away. I don't have a solarmeter at the moment but will look into getting one.

The torts are from the TC, it was interesting because they keep all the baby/juveniles in large custom tortoise tables outside ~2.5 x 10feet, seemed relatively dry since half was open top and in California can't imagine the humidity gets that high. Not sure if they bring them in at night. I emailed them, they are trying to help answer some questions.

The baby does perk up outside a little, any idea on 50/50 soaks with pedialyte water or baby food/water? I'll try to take the next stool sample, I got rid of the last one from few days ago.

Thanks for all the help.
 

Sterant

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How long should I be soaking?
20 to 30 minutes will do. Also consider that this tortoise has had a significant change in climate since leaving the TC. Ojai is a Mediterranean climate - sunny, with hot dry days and cool dry nights. The baby was outside 24 x 7 (I think) and now its indoors, in a humid environment with no natural sunlight. Big changes - might take some time to adjust to.
 

Tom

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I will hold the fruit and soak them twice daily in the mean time. I'll change out the fluorescent tubes to T8 UVB, is 5.0 or 10.0 needed? The bulbs are less than 10 inches away. I don't have a solarmeter at the moment but will look into getting one.

The torts are from the TC, it was interesting because they keep all the baby/juveniles in large custom tortoise tables outside ~2.5 x 10feet, seemed relatively dry since half was open top and in California can't imagine the humidity gets that high. Not sure if they bring them in at night. I emailed them, they are trying to help answer some questions.

The baby does perk up outside a little, any idea on 50/50 soaks with pedialyte water or baby food/water? I'll try to take the next stool sample, I got rid of the last one from few days ago.

Thanks for all the help.
The TC does NOT start their babies correctly. Way too dry and outside all day is NOT good for babies in any climate. Side by side comparisons prove this time and time again. When you get a baby from them, you have to understand the damage that has been done and just work to make conditions better from the day you get them. I have some babies from them. They grow at a fraction of the rate of well started babies, and I've been unable to stop the pyramiding they started despite years of housing in monsoon conditions.

There are people there who seem to get the idea after seeing my set ups and the results from what I've been telling them, but other people there set the policy for how babies are started. They subscribe to the "natural" method of raising baby tortoise without realizing, like most people, that what they are doing is the opposite of what would occur for that species in nature.
 

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I will hold the fruit and soak them twice daily in the mean time. I'll change out the fluorescent tubes to T8 UVB, is 5.0 or 10.0 needed? The bulbs are less than 10 inches away. I don't have a solarmeter at the moment but will look into getting one.

The torts are from the TC, it was interesting because they keep all the baby/juveniles in large custom tortoise tables outside ~2.5 x 10feet, seemed relatively dry since half was open top and in California can't imagine the humidity gets that high. Not sure if they bring them in at night. I emailed them, they are trying to help answer some questions.

The baby does perk up outside a little, any idea on 50/50 soaks with pedialyte water or baby food/water? I'll try to take the next stool sample, I got rid of the last one from few days ago.

Thanks for all the help.

For those of us whom are familiar with popular tortoise lingo and acronyms. What is TC?

Breeding and retailing operations such as TC use antiquated practices that result to a high chance of death shortly after being sold. These operations will typically combine dry with dry. Dry processed foodstuff with dry conditions. The tortoises that are given this type of regiment will often develop health complications because of these unnatural conditions. The comparison between a well started tortoise to a dry started tortoise is very noticeable.

Follow the advice given. Be sure to lookout for additional symptoms. Consider taking your tortoise to an experienced exotics vet if needed.
 

Tom

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Very interesting. I'd never have thought that the TC would be raising Radiata incorrectly.
They are regarded as world leading experts, but they use the same old wrong methods as so many other "experts" with most of their species. I bought some platynota from them and they were being housed on rice hulls for substrate. Rice hulls are hygroscopic. They absorb moisture from the air. All four of the ones I bought were already pyramiding and they were only about 30 grams on average. Interestingly, unlike most tortoise species that I have experience with raising from babies, these ones would not stop pyramiding despite 90%+ humidity, wet substrate, daily shell spraying, and long daily soaks. The largest and fastest growing one turned out female and her pyramiding reduced the most as she grew. The other three all turned out male, grew very slowly compared to the other platynota I've raised, and their pyramiding was, is and remains just awful. I'll take pics tomorrow to show what I mean. Mind you, all four were incubated for female by this world renowned facility. I did an hour long phone conversation with the main vet there and he seemed receptive to what I was trying to tell them, but when I went there two years later, I was told that none of what I shared with them had been implemented. Coincidentally, on the very day I visited and got the tour, they were switching from rice hulls to coco coir for at least some of the species. I don't know how well that worked out, but judging from what we are seeing here on this thread, they still have a ways to go.

I'll take my radiata advice from the people I know that produce amazing results. Dan, Mr. Z and my friend Chris here in CA. I mean no disrespect to the TC, but someone over there needs a kick in the pants to get them moving.
 

Ghazan

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Just an update, the little guy ended up passing away on 9/29 despite pedialyte/ water and carrot/water baths 2x/day. He never ended up eating again and this was before I could have the exotic animal vet see him as well.

I took my remaining radiated tortoise who seems to be overall okay (up to 76 grams) to the vet and the fecal exam is showing pinworms >30/hpf, so he recommended starting Panacur treatment on Day 1 and 14. My guess is the parasites along with the change in enclosure/humidity probably was too much stress to take.

When do I change the substrate? after the 1st treatment or after the 2nd?

What UVB readings should I want, it ranges from 6-7 directly under the tube to ~2-2.5 at the food dish and 0 in some corners/gaps?

Thank you
 

T Smart

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Just an update, the little guy ended up passing away on 9/29 despite pedialyte/ water and carrot/water baths 2x/day. He never ended up eating again and this was before I could have the exotic animal vet see him as well.

I took my remaining radiated tortoise who seems to be overall okay (up to 76 grams) to the vet and the fecal exam is showing pinworms >30/hpf, so he recommended starting Panacur treatment on Day 1 and 14. My guess is the parasites along with the change in enclosure/humidity probably was too much stress to take.

Thank you

Man... it's always tough to read posts like this. I'm deeply sorry for your loss. Hope your second stays strong!
 

x-tank

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Just an update, the little guy ended up passing away on 9/29 despite pedialyte/ water and carrot/water baths 2x/day. He never ended up eating again and this was before I could have the exotic animal vet see him as well.

I took my remaining radiated tortoise who seems to be overall okay (up to 76 grams) to the vet and the fecal exam is showing pinworms >30/hpf, so he recommended starting Panacur treatment on Day 1 and 14. My guess is the parasites along with the change in enclosure/humidity probably was too much stress to take.

When do I change the substrate? after the 1st treatment or after the 2nd?

What UVB readings should I want, it ranges from 6-7 directly under the tube to ~2-2.5 at the food dish and 0 in some corners/gaps?

Thank you

Thanks for giving me that advice to treat my rads from TC. I bought a bottle from ebay Panacur 10%. I treated all my rads in the enclosure, the ratio was 100 gram body weight = 0.1 mL of panacur. Today I found this in their enclosure. This thing is dying in spasm mode. Damn.. really messed up. I will make sure treat them day 1 and again in 14. Time to replace the entire substrate.
 
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