2 HIDES OR NOT 2 HIDES

[Russianuncletwo]

Now suddenly being tort dad to two Russian tortoises instead of one, I wanted opinions out there (and I’m asking “everywhere”.) My male, Luna and new smaller female, Jadely are using the same hide at the moment, While Luna was still missing, she got used to it for two “nights” alone and Luna’s known it for years. The two seem to be each other’s security blankets when it comes to vibrations/noise, etc. and as they become a little less inseparable now when out as they do their own thing as needed and keep to their own schedules, sleeping and otherwise after now 8 days together, I am wonder to add a second hide next to the hide they share. It’s been proven that when she went in, he was able to come out but I still think it may be a little constrictive if one wants to come out and the other is a litte in the way-I do not want to see basking, stretching nor eating be delayed or hard to accomplish when either or wants to. Also, though their primary enclosure is not where they spend their entire life, the extra hide will take away from flat, arid, walkable space (with perhaps a slight temperature cooler) as well as where I place cooling items for about 7 hours of their night if temperatures are warmer than they should be this time of the year in the room they are in. I have reason to believe as well, particularly knowing Luna, that he may be more relaxed knowing the tort he trusts as harmless is next to him as opposed to hearing noises and scrapes in a hide next to his that may feel there’s a predator out there. I still feel a hide for each of them in the long run outweighs the other advantages of just one hide. and should they still huddle in the same hide, then I’ll remove the one I am contemplating adding. One hide or two?

 

[wellington]

Two seperate enclosures, not two hides. Two russians can not live together. Eventually, probably sooner then later, he will pester her to death trying to breed. Russians are one of the more scrappy ones. They are not friends and do not feel secure with each other. They want their own space. Your taking a big chance leaving them together and one of the torts is going to pay for it.

 

[teresaf]

There are a lot of tort owners on here that really believe that two is a bad number to have in one enclosure. I believe they know what they are saying. if I were you I would get a second enclosure or... A couple more Russian Ladies. hehe

 

[Jodie]

I agree with the above. I wouldn't be willing to risk the health or life of one of my tortoises by going against the no pairs theory. I have seen the harassment in Leopard pairs, and they are not typically as scrappy as Russians.

 

[Yvonne G]

Two tortoises works out ok if you have them outside in a pretty big and well planted yard. But indoors it seldom works.

 

[dmmj]

keeping a male and female together is a bad idea sooner or later the male will start to mate the female constantly oftentimes to death. in the wild male will encounter females rarely. when having access 24/7 to a female they don't know how to control themselves and they will mate with her constantly much to the dismay of the female.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

Thank you all here-I am taking your words very seriously. One having been through an ordeal (missing, traveled, etc) and the other one in a new environment, they are to be considered quite individually vulnerable and insecure but once everyone gets laid back and comfortable, though I have heard many exceptions to the rule, I am prepared to separate if/when necessary. At this point, I'm concerned about one inadvertently hogging the prime heat/UVB spot over the other one. I'm observing and taking mental notes throughout the day.

 

[Tom]

I see.

You are one of those people who must learn the hard way.

This will make life hard for you, but really hard for one or both of your tortoises. I hope you'll reconsider.

Maybe these will help you understand what we are clearly failing to explain:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/bad-day-for-baby.114328/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...together-a-lesson-learned-the-hard-way.94114/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/pairs.34837/


Let me be clear and concise: Your two tortoises do not want to live together. They do not enjoy each others company. It is very stressful for them to live this way, and this will most likely end with one of them dead or injured, even if it takes months. There does not need to be obvious overt hostility with biting and ramming for this to be a bad deal.

 

[wellington]

I agree with the above. I wouldn't be willing to risk the health or life of one of my tortoises by going against the no pairs theory. I have seen the harassment in Leopard pairs, and they are not typically as scrappy as Russians.

Ditto, I am having that now with my leopards. It is turning out one of my "I thought females" seems to be acting more like a male. So, two males needs Seperate enclosures and I need one more as my female that I have in with my original male is not liking him hounding her any more. Geez and they are not the scrappy kind, ugh.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

Tom-
Thank you for your concern on my two shelled wonders here. For the record... 10 days ago I would be giving the same advice as you are; I didn't plan this all. There is reason to believe that due to circumstances and timing, I would not have my male back had I not gotten the female. My male tortoise was missing for ten days. He has been keeping me alive the last 10 months and has been special to me for the 4 years I've been connected to him. I inherited him after the death of the most important person in my life. When I got the female, I should add, I gave up hope after so many tragedies in my life the last two or so years and assumed I would never see my male tortoise again---then the miracles started happening in under 24 hours. I suddenly have a pair: my "baby" and a new precious tort. It has barely sunken in yet! Give me time here, but again, tough as you got above, I appreciate your concern and am taking your words and your links quite seriously. (Selfishly, I would like to get to know them separately and vice versa, come to think about it.)

 

[Russianuncletwo]

Two tortoises works out ok if you have them outside in a pretty big and well planted yard. But indoors it seldom works.

Good point.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

This is way off subject but just to share, my male tort was raised in a Doctor Doolittle home where tort and pit bull roamed a condo together and never had an issue. Before that, the same home had ferrets playing with a beagle/border collie everyday. Both of these scenarios are unheard of and scorned, yet there were no issues for years. The two of us spent countless hours, in different ways, making the unorthodox work when it came to animals. There is nothing like spare time and psychology!

 

[Jodie]

My dog and my tortoie also lived in harmony for years. Then one day it ended, and I found my tortoise upside down on the deck all chewed up. I got lucky, and it did not kill him. Somethings work for awhile, but when they no longer work, it can mean illness or death. That is the case with dogs and pairs in my opinion. The risk is too great.

 

[Tom]

Jodie spells it out eloquently. Said another way: Everything works, until the one day when it suddenly doesn't work. Many people skirt disaster somehow and then one day they don't.

As a professional animal trainer, do you know what I hear after nearly every incident that should have been seen coming a mile away? "He's never done that before…" Well of course not. If your one tortoises had previously bitten the eye out of the other one, you wouldn't put them together again to see if you could get rid of the other eye, would you? Of course not. So why put them together and wait for the first bit of bloodshed in the first place? You know it is very likely to end badly. We all know where this is going. So why not take advantage of the decades of experience and sage wisdom offered by so many people here, and just NOT have yet another easily predictable and easily preventable tragedy?

 

[johnsonnboswell]

Thank you all here-I am taking your words very seriously. One having been through an ordeal (missing, traveled, etc) and the other one in a new environment, they are to be considered quite individually vulnerable and insecure but once everyone gets laid back and comfortable, though I have heard many exceptions to the rule, I am prepared to separate if/when necessary. At this point, I'm concerned about one inadvertently hogging the prime heat/UVB spot over the other one. I'm observing and taking mental notes throughout the day.

One will not "inadvertently hog the light" or the food- s/he will do it with full intent to dominate and control resources. One will not be less hungry, it will be intimidated and afraid to approach the food. Things look random or accidental and are easy to interpret the way we want things to be, but that's not what's happening. By the time we notice bullying of any kind, it's been going on a long time and both animals have been stressed.

The tortoise that went walk about may have had the time of his life. It was an ordeal to you, not him.

 

[Yvonne G]

My dog and my tortoie also lived in harmony for years. Then one day it ended, and I found my tortoise upside down on the deck all chewed up. I got lucky, and it did not kill him. Somethings work for awhile, but when they no longer work, it can mean illness or death. That is the case with dogs and pairs in my opinion. The risk is too great.

Same thing can be said for in-the-ground pools and tortoises. He may skirt the edge of the pool for 10 years, then one day you come home and he's dead in the deep end.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

To be honest that's what I'm thinking in the back of my head. I'm using speech recognition here so bear with me. originally when Luna was found I felt bad for them both but when I saw the new female bring Luna back to his normal habits and she seemed to huddle next to him I said let's see where this takes us. Believe me if one even looks at the other the wrong way not only are they going to be in separate enclosures they are going to possibly be in separate homes

 

[Russianuncletwo]

One will not "inadvertently hog the light" or the food- s/he will do it with full intent to dominate and control resources. One will not be less hungry, it will be intimidated and afraid to approach the food. Things look random or accidental and are easy to interpret the way we want things to be, but that's not what's happening. By the time we notice bullying of any kind, it's been going on a long time and both animals have been stressed.

The tortoise that went walk about may have had the time of his life. It was an ordeal to you, not him.

One will not "inadvertently hog the light" or the food- s/he will do it with full intent to dominate and control resources. One will not be less hungry, it will be intimidated and afraid to approach the food. Things look random or accidental and are easy to interpret the way we want things to be, but that's not what's happening. By the time we notice bullying of any kind, it's been going on a long time and both animals have been stressed.

The tortoise that went walk about may have had the time of his life. It was an ordeal to you, not him.

 

[Russianuncletwo]

The ordeal I was referring to was the tortoise being put in his in a pocket and then taken on a motorcycle away. Being out in the field possibly was the time of his life. Basking in natural sunlight might have added years to his life as well

 

[Russianuncletwo]

At this point, my biggest problem is my male tort is sensitive to strangers, too much noise/vibration of the unknown (and when temperatures get out of range, it throws him off) thus my house was a fiasco for torts (one, two or twenty) in July. He seems to be back to being afraid to come too far out of a hide but should eat and bask. He does not consider female or me a threat. Female does not consider him a threat (yet...) Neither of them like being traveled outside but Luna was beginning to get used to it before he went missing-only strangers approaching would interfere with calm roaming and occasionally picking him up and moving him from point A to point B which he was also calm with. As Luna (male) still may be calming from ordeal of being in a pocket on a motorcycle followed by two long car trips, he may and seems to be more sensitive to things like being taken outside now, thus he pretty much stayed in hide from Sunday eve till Tuesday afternoon as they were outside Sunday. I should have let them be but yesterday again took them outside. They're now to be left alone for numerous days. Luna has part of himself out of the hide at this very minute. I am hoping he comes all the way. Knowing him, once he does, he will then do it every day until some major noise catastrophe happens perhaps but realistically, he'll just get back to normal. Wish him, not me, luck.