1 Year Hermann X-ray result lack calcium?

[Hermann Hermit]

Hi everyone, I am new member of the tortoise forum and posting the first thread to seek your advice on reading X-ray photo of my Hermann baby Royal (1 year old, weight 26 g). After her brother Loyal's sudden death two weeks ago, I took her immediately to the vet Avian and Exotic Center for exams. The doctors there said Royal's bones are in poor condition due to lack of calcium. They made the judge based on the attached X-ray and weight. I would be very grateful to hear your opinions. Another exam result of waste shows NO parasite.

I lost Loyal already and really hope Royal is returning to a happy healthy baby soon.

One year ago, I welcomed Royal and Loyal in New York home after overnight travel from Tyler and Sarah's tortoise supply in Las Vegas. Royal and Loyal were very energetic, active and walking around confidently. They are like my kids and bring me so much happiness. Until recently, they were eating like lion and walking like king. I was planning to celebrate one year anniversary of their arrival home, but so shocked Loyal passed away suddenly without any sign. very sad and can't sleep these days... reading forum posts on Hermann care and a lot of books. I still have not found out what caused Loyal's sudden death, but hope to save Royal first. After her brother Loyal's death, she is not interested in walking around anymore, looks lost in thought. She used to walk 1 meter in 10 minutes but now stays in the same place for the whole day even though she is still eating a lot.

I add calcium to her food and water, but want to make sure if lack of calcium is the main problem. Many thanks in advance!

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

I'm not qualified to judge X-rays (and the photo appears very small), but tell us about how you were housing these two. Were they together? What are the temperatures of the enclosure (highs and lows, day and night)? If they were housed indoors, what kind of UVB light are you using and how do you have it installed (photos would help here)? What about diet - what were you feeding them? What kind of supplements (calcium with d3?) and how much of the supplement did you feed?

 

[Yvonne G]

Welcome to the Forum!

All the calcium supplements and calcium-rich foods in the world aren't going to do your tortoise a bit of good unless you pair it with a GOOD UVB light. My light of choice is the Mercury Vapor Bulb, but it is ok to use a tube type fluorescent bulb (not the compact fluorescent bulbs).

Please take a good picture of your baby's habitat for us so we can give you better advice.

 

[Hermann Hermit]

Sarah and Yvonne, many thanks for your advice!

I really wish I heard your advice regarding good UVB at the beginning of having my babies Royal and Loyal!

I mistakenly thought full sunshine through window is sufficient and only turned on UVB (100w Powersun UVB lamp in winter or cold temperature), but later found out WINDOW filters out UVB even though heat gets in. As both of you and doctors suggested, good UVB is so important! I felt so guilty as their mom and can't sleep week after week.

But, I still want to find out what caused the sudden death of my Loyal ? And, what can help Royal return healthy happy baby?

I attached photos of their houses, yard, lighting and prescription here and really appreciate all insights.

[Photos]
1 Royal's new enclosure (bigger storage box and bigger wood hut) with 10 hours UVB daily (100 W Powersun UVB lamp) and heat
2. Royal and Loyal's former enclosure (UVB only in winter or cold temperature)
3. Royal and Loyal were eating in the yard (clover, dandelion etc. Checked NO chemistry)
4. Royal's prescription on 27 May 2016 by Avian and Exotic Center (Fecal exam: NO parasite; Oral Calcium daily; Betadine and Soother cream for skin)
5. UVB and heat facilities
6. Royal's skin peeling

Royal and Loyal were living together happy and healthy. Loyal passed away suddenly 3 weeks ago without any signal and everything changed. After that, Royal shows the difficulties: 1) NO energy to walk, 2) frequent stretch head out and shell up when eating 3) less poop and 4) skin peeling (see attached photo. Is it normal ?)

I realized Loyal may lack calcium as well but he walked and ate enthusiastically and looked in good situation, which should NOT be the main cause of his death. One possibility is thirst and hunger for 1.5 days. I traveled on Saturday morning and left food and water in their bowls. When returning on Sunday evening, greens and water were dry out in 1.5 days due to hot weather (they hid in wood hut). But Hermann tortoises are hardy ones and should survive even without water and food for 1.5 days in nature, right? And, Loyal (more black pattern) was stronger and bigger than Royal (Loyal 30g Royal 26g). Loyal passed away on Monday evening. Royal survives but becomes weak.

Another possibility is septicemia. Dear Yvonnes, I read all the posts regarding the possible causes of death and found one post of you mentioned "red spot" septicemia . I did see red spot on Loyal's plastron light areas the second day after his death, but not sure if it is normal symptom after death or possible cause. He was very active, eating and walking well, but suddenly gone. Would you please give me more insights on septicemia?

Temperatures: Daytime High 100F Night Low 80F
Humidity: 50-60
UVB: 100 W Powersun UVB lamp (In the past, only turned on in winter/cold, my huge mistake!)
Heat: 75 W
Diet: Lettuce, watercress, arugula and mesclun in food bowl, variety of greens in yard (clover, dandelion etc.)
Tongue: pink white clean healthy
Substrate: ZooMed Forest Floor bedding (Will half-soil-half-sand be better? I had concern if sand and soil may be eaten. Please correct me if not)

Most grateful to hear all kinds of advice and opinions!

Royal and Loyal's Mom

 

[JoesMum]

Because I am just about to go out I don't have much time, but I am sure @Yvonne G or one of the others can pick this up shortly and answer your questions in detail.

In the meantime, please read this thread as it will answer many of your questions and explain what your tort needs
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

@HermanniChris who wrote that is a species expert - there's nothing he doesn't know about Hermann's and how to raise them.

 

[JoesMum]

Also, please post pictures of your lights in position so we can see what the bulbs are.


Here's a lighting summary:

Ignore any references to UVA you may read - it's misleading marketing speak.

Your tort needs:

1. A basking lamp. This must hang vertically, not at an angle. Basking is essential to raise your tortoise's core temperature so it can digest food.

2. UVB light. Read the instructions for the source to see how close to the substrate it must be. UVB is essential so your tort can process dietary calcium and have healthy bones and shell.

Both 1 and 2 are available from the sun for those able to live outside.

3. A minimum overnight temperature (see the care sheet for your species)

A Mercury Vapor Bulb (MVB) provides combined UVB and Basking

Alternatively you can use 2 bulbs: a tube UVB and a reflector bulb for basking (a household reflector - not low energy or halogen - from B&Q will do the job; it's the wattage that counts)

Compact coil UVB harms tortoise eyes.

Basking and UVB should be on a timer so the light(s) are on for 12 hours a day. Temperature under the basking is regulated by its height above the substrate.

Overnight, depending on your home, you may need additional heat. You get this from a CHE (Ceramic Heat Emitter) which must be on a thermostat.

You will need digital thermometers for accuracy.

A temperature gun thermometer (inexpensive from Amazon) measures temperature accurately in specific places like directly under the basking lamp.

A min/max thermometer so you know the min/max temperatures in your home by day and night.

You should also get a good digital hygrometer to measure humidity.

 

[DPtortiose]

I'm curious who advised you to purchase the Calcium glubonate, Betadine and Soother plus cream. Did the vet give you any instructions?

If you want conclusive knowledge how your animal died I would let the vet do a necropsy. An experienced member might be able to give you an educated guess, bit this is the only way to be sure.

 

[dmmj]

Were these tortoises housed together?

 

[Hermann Hermit]

@JoesMum @DPtortiose @dmmj really appreciate your suggestions, questions and sharing useful posts!

@JoesMum: For UVB and Heat, I am using ZooMed PowerSun UV Mercury Vapor Lamp 100Watts (white) + ZooMed Nocturnal Infrared Heat Lamp 75 W (red). As you suggested, I will change the position to vertically (currently 75% angle) . Do you think the attached ZooMed PowerSun UV Mercury Vapor Lamp 100Watts sufficient? I do use digital thermometer and hygrometer to measure Temperatures and Humidity: Daytime High 100F Night Low 80F, Humidity 50%-60%

@DPtortiose The doctors from Avian and Exotic Center gave the prescription (see the attached photo in my previous post): Calcium, Betadine and Soother cream. I buried Loyal the third day after his death (his eyes were open at his final stage of life in earth; I thought and hoped he would be awaken next day. so sad... I was planning to celebrate their 1 year birthday and suddenly Loyal gone just before birthday.) I did take his poop to medicine and was informed poop is only valid within 24 hours for fecal exam.

@dmmj Royal and her brother loyal did live together for almost one year. After Loyal suddenly passed away, I have located Royal to a new enclosure larger space, same substrate, but have 10 hours UVB daily (in the past, UVB only in winter or cold temperature).

@Yvonne G May I seek your insights on "red spot" septicemia? I did see red spot on Loyal's plastron light areas the second day after his death, but not sure if it is normal symptom after death or possible cause. He was very active, eating and walking well, but suddenly gone...

Any other opinions? Many thanks in advance!

 

[DPtortiose]

@DPtortiose The doctors from Avian and Exotic Center gave the prescription (see the attached photo in my previous post): Calcium, Betadine and Soother cream. I buried Loyal the third day after his death (his eyes were open at his final stage of life in earth; I thought and hoped he would be awaken next day. so sad... I was planning to celebrate their 1 year birthday and suddenly Loyal gone just before birthday.) I did take his poop to medicine and was informed poop is only valid within 24 hours for fecal exam.

I'm curious why the vet was describing two antibacterical/wound salves, did the animal had an open wound?

I'm also not sure why such an expensive form of calcium was recommended. The reptivite in the picture also contains a good amount of calcium, I'm not sure why so much extra calcium was recommended.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

One of the photos shows a double lamp fixture that contains a coiled, compact florescent bulb. Are you using the lamps shown? That type of lamp has been shown to injure tortoises eyes.
sunlight. real sunlight is the very best light. Your issue was that the glass window blocked nearly all of the beneficial UVB. Glass can also magnify the sun and make an area very hot. I would not place a tortoise enclosure very close to a window.
you have spent a lot on bills. However, your enclosure is no where near large enough. If it were 6 times larger, it would still be too small and tortoises do not do well housed as a pair. They are solitary.
There's a lot to do. I'm sorry that you walked into this so ill prepared, but it's no so hard to get things right...And then it's easy.