Leopard hatchling help

A friend of mine just informed me that 5 of her baby leopards died. I hatched out these babies myself. They went into a brooder box as soon as they started pipping and stayed there until their sacs had absorbed. I saw some of them eating the shells (but not all of them as is usually the custom.) They went directly to my friend who had a beautiful closed, humid chamber. I saw it myself and everything looked great. The first few months these babies grew incredibly and were looking lovely (when I last saw them.) She said she was putting them out for sunshine daily and supplementing with calcium twice a week. I'm not completely sure what she was feeding them, but I know they had constant access to water and the temps in the chamber were good. I have several of these clutch mates myself and mine are doing great - growing huge already and hard and healthy. The other clutch mates (given to other friends of mine) are doing well too. I'm not sure when my friend's died, she just told me, but I was really surprised because they were doing so well and then she said they went soft and died. I would love some ideas as to what happened here, so I can prevent it from happening again, so any ideas and suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I was trying to figure this out myself. 4 of them (I never saw the 5th) were covered in shell rot, too.

More background, I helped kimber's friend set up the chamber. It was a replica of mine.

Once the 4 babies were passed to me for help (just before memorial day weekend), I treated for shell rot following the advice of Dr. Greek. The softest baby died within 2 or 3 days. The other 3 passed away over the next 3 weeks.

I worked to improve their diet and added calcium to soaks and the food. I may have misunderstood then, because I thought the previous owner said the diet was primarily romaine, spring mix (with a mention of not liking/eating the spring mix) and no supplements.

Based on the soft shells and diet info, I assumed they passed away from calcium deficiency.

I was very sad about it. I reached out to some other members here for help/tips. I tried to do all I could for them. I'm sorry I wasn't able to help them.

It sounds to me as if the light either wasn't a good UVB light, or else the periods out in the sun came too late. Because others from the same clutch are still alive and doing well, I'm pretty sure there was something wrong with the calcium/uvb, etc. for those babies.

When they're small like that, once they go soft, they almost always die. It's imperative to keep them from going soft. Once they get a little bigger, you can recover them from softness.

It's a sad situation. So sorry.

None of this adds up for me. Never seen anything like it. Mine are sunned almost daily and get a much more "natural" diet, but this sounds pretty extreme for not enough sun and not enough variety in the diet. Especially if they were thriving at several months old already. I wonder, does this person have lots of other tortoises? Possibly a rescue situation, or just many of them coming and going? My hunch is some sort of disease from another species. Does this person also have russians, stars or pancakes?

Given that yours (Kimber) from the same batch are doing well, and the other ones that went to the other friend are all fine, the problem must be something at the place where the ones got sick and died. It would be worth paying for the necropsy for me to find out. There are so many disease that can shut down their organ systems and produce these symptoms. It could be any number of pathogens.

Thank you, Tom & Yvonne. I'm just sick over it. I had given some others away earlier this year that did not do well either. I found out later they were not kept very warm, probably below 80. By the time I got them back they were soft and sick. Heather tried her best to save them but they didn't make it. I felt just terrible about it as I thought the woman I gave them to was going to be a really good home. Now I'm concerned it is something I'm doing wrong with them as brand new hatchlings, but I have followed all of Tom's advice carefully, so I'm not sure what else it could be. Especially with these 5 - they went straight from the brooder to the chamber. (The brooder is kept the same temperature as the incubator - about 87.) Not all of my hatchlings eat the egg shells - do you think this makes any difference?

Yes, the friend that has these five does take in rescues and she has Russians. It's probably too late for a necropsy - I'm not sure when they died. She just told me about it and I know she feels bad. Please feel free to suggest anything else I can do to keep this from happening again.

Well, I do know 2 of them were housed with CDT babies before I set up the chamber.

Their sunning time was under a hardware cloth/wood frame and placed on the grass in a Redfoot yard.

But again, the romaine diet lacked calcium.

I love these people dearly...I wouldn't trade my relationship with them for anything. We may not agree on all things "turtle and tortoise"...but still. And I really wanted to help them and the Leo babies.

One more thing I just thought of. The first 2 were given to her in December and were doing great. The next 2 were given to her in Feb, and as far as I know were doing fine as well. The last 2 were given to her in March. One of these last 2 eggs took much longer to hatch than the rest and it was very small. Within a few weeks of giving it to her, it died - which didn't really surprise me since it was really small and the runt of the bunch. My friend said the other one was fine though. Could the little one that died have had something that maybe infected the others? Again, this baby went straight from the brooder to her chamber, and I have hatchlings from each of these clutches that are healthy and happy. My heart is just just sick over this. I am open to any suggestions!

They died in reverse order. The newest ones died first, the December one last.

Oh - I didn't realize she was only feeding them romaine. I thought she said Mazuri too - but I don't know. I also thought she said she was giving them calcium twice a week, but she might have said once a week - not sure. Well, knowing some of that now I can see that it may have been a calcium deficiency issue. I also didn't know they were living with the 2 CDTs either. (If I remember right one of those 2 CDTs was a small, stunted hatchling that died too.) Well, at least it's making more sense as to several things that could have happened. It's still strange though because when I was there in February, the 2 December babies had really grown and were hard then. (They were all hard when I gave them to her.) The shell rot is odd too - the temps looked good when I was there. (Please know I'm not trying to badmouth anyone - just trying to figure out what went wrong so as to not repeat it.) I didn't know you had taken them, Heather. Thanks for doing your best with them.

I know kimber. You care and I did too. It's a bummer all around.

When I picked them up (right before memorial day), the first thing I asked about was diet info. She had tried Mazuri a few times but said they only stepped on it and made a mess. Oh, I do remember that hibiscus flowers (no leaves) were also fed. But at the time said no supplements.

Yes that small CDT baby did pass away too.

The 2 December babies were doing great at one point! They were growing smooth and beautiful. They even had some size on them! I had gone to see them right after the next babies were dropped off and took photos of them, they looked so good. I was so happy!
unfortunately, one of the Dec babies died from overheating in the sun (which is why only 4 came to me, not 5) and it was the other Dec baby that was the last to pass away in my care. It felt very hollow and light when I picked it up...but was the least soft. Again, it was the yonger ones that were very squishy and had no new growth. They weighed 20-23 grams when I picked them up.

I'm glad to hear that yours (kimber) are doing great!

Oh dear - I didn't know one of them had died from overheating either. Now that all this new information has come to light, I can see there are many factors that may have contributed to this situation. Too bad. Thank you everyone for your input.

You always feel like a failure when one dies. So a little late to the game,don't know if my input is needed. Sounds like bad care sadly, poor diet, though since some were housed with CDT's, I wonder if they transmitte d something. Any plans on doing a necropsy, with five passing away, there should be a common thread somewhere.

It has been my experience that leopards typically do not eat their egg shells after hatching. I've hatched out some hundreds and have never seen that, so I don't think that would factor in to this situation and it sounds like they had a good start in life.

Based on Heather's information, it seems like a factor was nutritional deficiency. How did they wind up with shell rot? were they diagnosed by a vet with shell rot? If this occurred under their care, something was clearly wrong with their husbandry.

Were they eating spinach?

Neal said:

It has been my experience that leopards typically do not eat their egg shells after hatching. I've hatched out some hundreds and have never seen that, so I don't think that would factor in to this situation and it sounds like they had a good start in life.

Based on Heather's information, it seems like a factor was nutritional deficiency. How did they wind up with shell rot? were they diagnosed by a vet with shell rot? If this occurred under their care, something was clearly wrong with their husbandry.

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Thank you - sometimes I see them munch on the egg shells, but not all of them. I do not understand the shell rot either. The temps were good - I did notice the walls of the enclosure were dripping wet, and I know this concerned my friend, but I often have condensation on mine too with no shell rot. It has been my assumption that temps above 80 will not cause shell rot no matter what the humidity. Is that correct?

jtrux said:

Were they eating spinach?

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As far as I know they were not eating spinach.

No spinach. She said they wouldn't eat the spring mix (containing spinach) at all.

My PC is already packed for the move...but I have the plastron photos. I'll upload it eventually. Or kimber, I'll send you the photo. It's going to be a little while before I have access to it again and this thread may have died down by then.

I was shocked to see rot myself. But it was definitely there. After some betaine scrubs and daily treatments of an anti fungal cream it looked a bit better and stopped spreading.
My thoughts on it are they didn't get out/off the soaked coir often enough. My chambers get condensation on the walls too but I still have dry-damp areas on top, it's not sopping wet.

Soft shell, rot, and their size, looks like a trio of factors, add in the cross species, and low nutrition diet, looks bad all around. Prob. a combo of things, I think one by itself, could/would have been correctable, but all those thing working together, poor little guys, sadly did not have much of a chance.

I think you are not being told the truth here somewhere by your friend, or she was the victim of disease spread by species mixing. If they got daily sun and calcium twice a week, they should not have been soft even with a romaine only diet. If they were out in the sun daily and drying off in the UV and dry SoCal air, shell rot seems incredibly unlikely. I have kept leopards and sulcatas both on wet substrate in swampy conditions. I have never seen any hint of shell rot. For these tortoises to have been thriving, growing, and hard shelled, and then to be soft and dying just a few months later sounds like disease organisms to me. The sun and daily drying out should have prevented any shell rot, even though it is unlikely there would be any without sun and daily drying. The sunshine and calcium should also have kept the shell nice and hard even if the diet was not great. This sounds to me like large scale organ failure and immune system shut down, or immune system failure for some reason. I'm still leaning toward disease organism.

About the eggshell eating in the brooder box: It was the breeder of my leopards who hatches his egg in the ground who told me that leopards eat all the egg shells before they dig out of their nest. I started doing this with sulcatas and leopards after that. Some eat it and some don't. I don't think it matters much either way.

Was there sphagnum or peat moss used?