MBD/Pyramiding Concern

I know Russian tortoises don't pyramid unless they are in poor care, but I worry a lot, so some reassurance or correction will be very helpful. I searched for MBD and found a description of what it can look like, and the conditions that result in it. I will attempt to attach photos. She doesn't walk strange, eats every day, but the back of her shell looks odd.
She also has had some very odd growth patterns. Also, her growth lines haven't "hardened" yet. They have been somewhat soft for two or so months. I figured she needed more calcium to help with this. so I have been using calcium twice a week for her. But nothing has happened. Her growth is very uneven. I will attach photos. The back scute has a huge growth line, and some on the left do, but none on the right. Is growth supposed to be even, or is this normal? The scute above the tail looks like it wants to create a growth line, but looks like it's "stuck" and I think that is what is giving her shell the weird look.
Also, if it is visible, does it look like she is "overweight?" She is in a 4'x2' so I'm concerned about her weight (upgrading greatly this spring). My last concern is her skin. She has a lot of skin peeling on her back legs. I originally soaked her once a week, but now I have been soaking two-four times a week to help with the peeling. But I'm not seeing a significant difference.
I know this is a lot, but these are the concerns that I have had for a while now and I just need some reassurance. Thank you in advanced for any help that can be offered.

Okay... I'm about to go into overdrive! Lol!
So
1) The dry peeling skin can be helped if you add a bit more humidity. My Russian area is at 10%. This keeps them nice and soft skinned.

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I have to go really fast. I'll finish when I get back.

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Excuse me. I had to re warm the sulcata's soak.

So the growth on your Russian looks fine. But you mentioned not being "hard". Do you mean the appearance or is it actually squishy?

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You won't see any effects for a while when adding calcium. I'm thinking that is what is causing the uneven growth. It's really not anything to worry about. She is pyramided but there's nothing you can do now. Definitely upgrade the cage size. That's a big thing too.

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Oh, and Russians very seldomly get overweight. Look up 'overweight Russian tortoise'. Very distinct.

Overall, your Russian looks pretty darn good.

Only 10%? I have been keeping her at 30% thinking that it was still too low. When I said hard, I mean it's not squishy, but still feels like new growth lines. She had a growth line on her plastron, but that hardened very quickly. These have been around for the same amount of time but still haven't "blended" with the shell or firmed. Is the pyramiding bad? Is it something wrong I've done?

Have you had her from a baby? If not, it wasn't your fault. The humidity might be what it keeping the lines fresh. When you have a 10' x 9' Russian cage, it isn't easy to keep humidity up.

tffnytorts said:

Have you had her from a baby? If not, it wasn't your fault. The humidity might be what it keeping the lines fresh. When you have a 10' x 9' Russian cage, it isn't easy to keep humidity up.

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I haven't had her for even a year yet. March is her "adoption anniversary." She is a wild caught form Petco. Thanks for the assurance.

The growth could definitely be from wild- ness. No problem.

No, 10% is way too low for humidity. If you're getting 10% you're in the desert or your gauge is broken.

I like to keep Russians at 40% or more. Now, I'm on the east coast so humidity is very easy except in the depth of winter. This morning my enclosure was 48% and I added water to the substrate to bring it toward 50%. In Spring to Fall I get humidity closer to 70% until I have to run the AC.

For a more even scute growth I've tried something I read on this forum. Take a Q-tip and dip it into a bit of olive oil; then rub it along the joints (growth lines) between the scutes. Use just a small amount and try it once a week for a month. It seems to help.

Good luck.

tffnytorts said:

Have you had her from a baby? If not, it wasn't your fault. The humidity might be what it keeping the lines fresh. When you have a 10' x 9' Russian cage, it isn't easy to keep humidity up.

Click to expand...

Wow, I would love to see pictures of that enclosure! Is it indoor at 10 by 9

Your Russian doesn't look too bad really. BUT, I like to keep my Russian between 50 to 70% humidity, so that's probably your problem - not enough humidity. I've got mine in a 3 ft by 5 ft homemade indoor enclosure, and I still sometimes feel like its kind of small. So the plan this spring is to add a second floor since I built my walls so tall.

Re: RE: MBD/Pyramiding Concern

TortsNTurtles said:

tffnytorts said:

Have you had her from a baby? If not, it wasn't your fault. The humidity might be what it keeping the lines fresh. When you have a 10' x 9' Russian cage, it isn't easy to keep humidity up.

Click to expand...

Wow, I would love to see pictures of that enclosure! Is it indoor at 10 by 9

Click to expand...

Its outdoor. I can't get more than 15% humidity. Its not reasonable unless I build a greenhouse. I keep them dry-ish so that they don't end up sleeping in moldy substrate.
It's my own tested opinion that adult wild caught Russians don't benefit from high humidity.

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The cage is literally just a fenced off part of the yard. Unless i make a personal weather system, high humidity isn't possible.

Ok thanks. I thought it was an indoor enclosure that size. That makes sense now. I was looking forward to see a large indoor enclosure lol. I would imagine it would be hard. I have the opposite problem here too much humidity and so I have to provide a dry area.

WillTort2 said:

No, 10% is way too low for humidity. If you're getting 10% you're in the desert or your gauge is broken.

I like to keep Russians at 40% or more. Now, I'm on the east coast so humidity is very easy except in the depth of winter. This morning my enclosure was 48% and I added water to the substrate to bring it toward 50%. In Spring to Fall I get humidity closer to 70% until I have to run the AC.

For a more even scute growth I've tried something I read on this forum. Take a Q-tip and dip it into a bit of olive oil; then rub it along the joints (growth lines) between the scutes. Use just a small amount and try it once a week for a month. It seems to help.

Good luck.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this tip. I think my parents just bought a huge bottle of olive oil, so maybe I can get away with using a little bit of it.

tffnytorts said:

Its outdoor. I can't get more than 15% humidity. Its not reasonable unless I build a greenhouse. I keep them dry-ish so that they don't end up sleeping in moldy substrate.
It's my own tested opinion that adult wild caught Russians don't benefit from high humidity.

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The cage is literally just a fenced off part of the yard. Unless i make a personal weather system, high humidity isn't possible.

Click to expand...

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Damp substrate does not get moldy if it is any of the right types of substrate. I have 20 russians sleeping on or in damp substrate every day, and it is never moldy.

How many adult wild caught tortoises have you tested this opinion on? If you can't get more than 15%, how did you test this? To test this "opinion" you would need to have kept many tortoises both ways for long periods of time. Have you done this?

There is NO tortoise that "benefits" from 10% humidity, and I don't think that is good advice. Russians certainly don't need it as humid as a RF, and adults can certainly tolerate lower humidity than some, but advising people that extremely low humidity is somehow good for them is not a good practice. You can raise humidity in your outdoor enclosure by planting and irrigating grass, weeds and lots of plants and bushes. The more densely planted it is, the more humidity it will give off and retain. This will give your russians a choice of microclimates to hang out in. Adding a humid hide can help too.

Also, you can add outdoor misters. Just a thought...

I have tested this idea on more than 12 Russians. I had an indoor closed chamber up for 6 years (60-70% humidity tested) . The Russians I had, did not thrive in the humidity, being sluggish and lethargic. The heat was at 92° in most areas, 95 in basking areas, and 88 in cooler areas.
My coco coir and plain old dirt from 2 feet into the ground molded. White and fuzzy.

It also seemed to encourage parasitic growth. However I cant prove this, as one tortoise was ill during this trial and had to be removed.
At the moment, I have one Russian in 50% humidity as he is healing from shell damage. I just cannot imagine going through the struggle of keeping high humidity outdoors. I spray down the cage several times throughout the day and have more than one mister hooked up during spring, summer and fall.
Perhaps others work with this, but I personally cannot. My Russians are all in a perfect condition (they're all rescues so not visually perfect) but I'm very confident that they have no issues in low humidity. I will one day purchase two captive bred Russians, and have them in varied stimulated climates. Again, I am very happy with how my Russians are set up and do not have any sort of reason thus far to change it. I do agree that to encourage smooth growth humidity is key, but for my group, I see no problem.

You kept russians indoors at 92-88 ambient, and you think they were lethargic because of 60-70% humidity? And you've drawn your conclusions by comparing that to russians living outdoors, in large pens, with real sunshine, in a proper temperate climate? I don't doubt that your current outdoor lot is doing better than your former indoor lot, but there are many variables involved, and I don't think humidity has much to do with it one way or the other. Don't you think proper temperatures, more space, and natural sunshine instead of incandescent lights might have something to do with the improvement that you are seeing?

Yes, I do. However I cannot build a 9'x 10' closed chamber in my living room. Like previously stated, I cannot contain humidity in an area that has air circulation and direct sunlight. At least, not until i can build a greenhouse. That would be a great experiment to test, but again, I personally would get biased results. I currently have my 'special' guy, Bob, in a humid indoor enclosure so that he can be as comfortable as possible. He gets 5hours of Sun time and so far is doing wonderfully.

I soon will have to separate the "dominant" male and make a few more pens. Perhaps I can test more theories then.

So besides the old pyramiding, does the new growth look pyramided? Some parts are growing very oddly, but I am trying the method suggested about olive oil once a week. In the spring and summer here, the humidity is relatively high, it is usually at least 50% and more if it rained the day before. So she should be okay in her outdoor enclosure come spring. And she is getting an upgraded indoor enclosure too. It will be eight feet by three feet. So I will probably put a humid hide in it because it's impossible for me to maintain humidity indoors during the winter.