Kalahari Tent tortoise

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Alice.S

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Hi,

I've been thinking about getting some pancakes tortoises, I like their size and personality, then came across P. oculifera (if I spelled that correctly).

Much larger range than pancakes, smallish in size and really attractive to look at. I have looked at many buy/sell places, and don't see them available. They are CITES II like all others that are not I, so where can I find out more about getting one, and hear what people who have had them say about their experience.

I get the strong point of view about their adaptability to captivity (not so good), but other species have been more difficult, and now they are bred in captivity(M. impressa)

If no one sorts it out, it will never be sorted out. Right?

Alice. Always reading more.
 

Weldd

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I'm not sure where you live but unless it is within their range there is essentially no chance to obtain these legally. Actually, I'm not sure if it is even legal to keep them if you live within their range...
 

tortadise

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They are a cites 2 unlike pssamobates geometricus. They are much harder to care for than pancakes. There diet is very very precise to certain succulents and buffalo grasses. They are relatively delicate cannot take humidity or moisture and stress very easy upon getting established. If your up for the challenge and can legally get them. I would suggest a group kept seperate a for captive breeding purposes. But if your not real familiar with dificult care species I woyld go with the pancakes. They are very easy. So are you in europe or africa?
 

Alice.S

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http://sarca.adu.org.za/



Hi,

You might take a look at a few places on the web that are not based on the tears of the failed attempts at this interest. I am not a fan of perpetuating others' failure.

If you cross reference actual field locations, rain fall, and look at Google earth you can see this species is adapted to seasonal rainfall, not dead land. They have been found adjacent to active irrigated fields.

They live in at least three countries, all with active wildlife trade.

I suppose that of all the Egytian tortoises that came to the USA a very few have made the transition to captivity and are now those that produce the hatchlings posted for sale - represent a very few from the many many that were in the greed part of the trade.

I think a careful work-up of climate/diet and individuals that are not part of some massive greed importation would work with few problems.

The difficult task is the collection and importation. I imagine a small request for CITES docs in the paper work of an official dealing with game trophies etc might get laughed at. But nothing ventured nothing gained.

The primary use of the species in their native range, is for making small purses, at least that is posted on the Botswana tourism web page

Tortadise, your response is based on actual effort (?), or a repeat of the many people who seem to all be repeating some failed attempt not readily documented anywhere that I can find yet. If you find a lead on this that would be helpful.

I have not read a first person report on this animal in captivity. At least a report that has not started with traumatized animals in the first place.

Alice
 

Vincentdhr

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I volunteer at the San Diego Zoo in the reptile department, and last year we got thirty Kalahari Tent Tortoises from a collection program (run by the zoo) in Africa. Only two (both males) are still alive.

So take your chances with this species... They are extremely delicate.
 

GBtortoises

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By all known accounts, all of the Tent tortoises require very unique and specific environmental conditions at certain times of the year. They are a fragile species at best. This is the primary reason that they are protected as they are. Very, very few have ever been seen in captivity and as Vicnentdhr example illustrates above, they are very delicate in captivity. In actuality this is one of the few groups of tortoise species who should probably never be in captivity at any level but an effort should be concentrated on preserving them, untouched, in their native habitat.
 

tortadise

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Alice.S said:
http://sarca.adu.org.za/



Hi,

You might take a look at a few places on the web that are not based on the tears of the failed attempts at this interest. I am not a fan of perpetuating others' failure.

If you cross reference actual field locations, rain fall, and look at Google earth you can see this species is adapted to seasonal rainfall, not dead land. They have been found adjacent to active irrigated fields.

They live in at least three countries, all with active wildlife trade.

I suppose that of all the Egytian tortoises that came to the USA a very few have made the transition to captivity and are now those that produce the hatchlings posted for sale - represent a very few from the many many that were in the greed part of the trade.

I think a careful work-up of climate/diet and individuals that are not part of some massive greed importation would work with few problems.

The difficult task is the collection and importation. I imagine a small request for CITES docs in the paper work of an official dealing with game trophies etc might get laughed at. But nothing ventured nothing gained.

The primary use of the species in their native range, is for making small purses, at least that is posted on the Botswana tourism web page

Tortadise, your response is based on actual effort (?), or a repeat of the many people who seem to all be repeating some failed attempt not readily documented anywhere that I can find yet. If you find a lead on this that would be helpful.

I have not read a first person report on this animal in captivity. At least a report that has not started with traumatized animals in the first place.

Alice

From personal experiance No I have not had this species. I was not set up to take on the adventure. I have known 4 people that have taken them on as well with the geometric. They were considered in relation twice as hard to acclimate and keep stable as impressa. You have to keep a almost perfect climate regulated by pressure, humidty(when needed) Because they do get rainfall but only in certain months of the year. From the keepers I know that have geometric/tents they are in very very expensive and precise habitates and some still have not done well. Once you get them established they are considered easy to an extreme experianced person, but they should be left in native protected lands. CITES would more than likely not issue an export and if they did I know US would deny it, unless your a pretty well established organization and waive USFW to allow it. Same thing with ploughsare, you CAN imort them, but the requirments are very very difficult to waiver USFW allowance of them being imported. Basically its an ammendment of the endangered species act, and a provisional status of the animals being allowed into the United States. I would go with an egyptian or pancake if you really feel the challenge of a beautiful african species. Or you can even try Angulata. These can be found in the states, and are much easier to acclimate than the tent, and have a broader graze diet to sustain stable in captivity.

Good luck in your endevours. If you do find some tents and pursue it, please let us know and keep conservation in mind with this species.
 

Tortus

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I don't know why anyone would want to take on something this endangered and delicate. There are many more hardy torts out there with lots of personality that you can obtain easily from breeders.

Just my 2 cents.
 

Weldd

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This is a remarkable thread. Will be interesting to see where it goes...
 

tortadise

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Tortus said:
I don't know why anyone would want to take on something this endangered and delicate. There are many more hardy torts out there with lots of personality that you can obtain easily from breeders.

Just my 2 cents.

Well, I would love to have some, but I am still not ready. My organizations focus is on asian/south american right now. In means of new facilities being constructed for a more natural environment for better thriving animals. When I get to the point of building a africa house it will be very very extensive and elaborate and take a lot of time and money to sustain a perfect micro climate for species like the tent. In reality captive breeding helps species that are in severe danger in the wild. But then again this species has very little known in successfully keeping in captivity. A lot of private keepers are very self kept at their secrets of success. I would foresee if this species was a success at being captive bred and placed on the "market" they would still be very hard for people to maintain correctly. Fortunately they are in protected areas in south africa as well as the geometric tortoise its almost extinct relative.
 

Alice.S

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Well, I agree this is an interesting thread.

I would like to hear more about those animals from SDZ, like their condition upon arrival. And - the care they got. Share the knowledge! How did they come to be part of a program - a collection program - what is that?

Males in most species have a larger home range, travel to share the 'seed', so they would be more adapted to a dynamic life.

I know of several very long term captives (20+ years ) at a zoo in Fresno P.t.ssp. It comes down to the day to day care, and the pre-captive condition.

Kalahari's have no field data to back up their scarcity or bountifulness, so unless someone has some peer-reviewed paper, not NGO hype, I would suggest that as they are doing OK - present in several big game preserves and National parks for three separate countries - they do not represent some scarce tortoise. Large range / scattered populations does not mean rare from what I understand about wildlife scarcity.

Frankly if they were in some dire population levels I would tend to believe someone would be making a major career out of their plight.

I've known a major breeder who wild collected dozens of aquatic species from the 'new world' and stated that wild collected hatchlings would often produce F1 in captivity before wild caught adults. I think aquatics tend to me more behaviorally plastic than terrestrials, so this is likely to be the case even more strongly for terrestrials - that adults do not transition to captivity so well. Aquatics are adapted to a dynamic environment, whereas terrestrials 'map' and have much less change in their home range over their life than aquatics experience.

I've much more research to do. I don't think CITES would be much of an issue. I don't seek to "trade" in them. Kalahari's are not ploughshares (CITES I), they are CITES II, like P.t.ssp and are indeed 'around' as I have come to find out from posting this thread. Look at the CITES web page <http://www.cites.org/eng/app/appendices.php>.

I would not seek to find them in PetSmart like all those Tajikistan "Russian" tortoises for $99.00. Some tents have done well in captivity and some have not. I'd really like to hear more about that SDZ situation if that is possible. Maybe we could all learn more from direct experience.

Alice S.
 

Vincentdhr

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The San Diego Zoo is a very prominent zoo in the conservation world. As such, they are allowed to field collect animals and bring them back to the US. A collection program is a group of biologists, naturalists, and experienced animal handlers who are sent out by the zoo with the express purpose of collecting animals from a specific area. In this case, the zoo was collecting meerkats, hyraxes, antelope, cranes, snakes, certain native plants, and some highly endangered leaf chameleons. The tent tortoises were picked up on the side. When the zoo ships animals, they do not just throw the animals into a crate together. The small, extremely delicate animals are put into specially designed shipping terrariums which mimic their natural habitat, down to pressure (for the plane ride), temperature, humidity, light schedule, amount of oxygen, substrate, and what plants they are familiar with. The tent tortoises and the leaf chameleons both got this treatment. Hardy snakes are simply bagged individually and placed in temperature monitored crates, while mammals are placed in individual crates. None of the animals died during shipment, which is generally a good sign. Once the tortoises arrived, their self contained shipping terrarium was placed into a larger one, equipped with a feeding airlock that way no pressure or humidity was lost, and the tortoises exited into their new home, which was planted with native African succulents and grasses, obtained from the zoo's massive plant collection. Over two weeks, we gradually lowered the pressure until it was equal to San Diego's. This didn't cause any problems, and they were fine for the remaining four months of quarantine that the zoo uses. The tortoises seemed to be doing fine and were eating normally, so much so that we were already selecting which ones to put one exhibit. Then, we began finding dead ones. The slightest things began stressing them to death. A tortoise would nudge a plant, and the tortoise on the other side of the plant would have a heart attack. We could not move them to solitary enclosures or they would stress even more, so we had to watch as the entire group dwindled down to just the two males, which are doing just fine today.
Their diet is incredibly specific, they eat mainly succulents, only occasionally nibbling on some grasses. The humidity has to be kept low or they will grow mold inside of their lungs and sinus cavity. The two males we have that survived were the smallest tortoises in the shipment, and the smallest and largest specimens were the least easily stressed. The zoo's naturalists did publish a field study on the tent tortoises distribution and diet, but I am afraid that the few copies available would exclusively be in zoological libraries.
Once you get past the stressing period, these guys are not the most difficult tortoises to care for, but remember that thy are being kept in a world class zoo with access to their native diet, and all of the equipment needed to acclimate them.
You also need to realize that the tent tortoises are not easy to come by. The zoo's collection program, just for that one trip, ended up costing more than $800,000. The area that they are native to has also recently become practically a war zone, so it is very hard to stay safe there.
Finally, even the zoo had trouble containing the Cites paperwork for the animals, as you first need a permit to collect them wherever they may be found, which involves talking to several countries' wildlife ministers. Then you have to get the Cites export permit, which they wouldn't grant unless we had over 250 animals. I would say that the hassle involved in these tortoises is not worth it for the individual enthusiast. They are simply too delicate and are best left in the wild. In fact, it might be easier to import a Ploughshare, as they are not as delicate and are so endangered that they garner a lot of attention, making it easier to import a small group. I would stick with either a Pancake or an Egyptian, as they are easier and a lot more frequently available.
 

DesertGrandma

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@Vincentdhr...If I lived in SD I would so so be tryng to volunteer in this area. Really interesting!!! Thanks for posting.
 

Alice.S

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Thanks for the details. I imagine that staggering expense $800,000 was for all those animals you mentioned of which the tortoises seemed to be a "why not some of these too" based on your narration.

The diet is well known and an in-situ study is fully cited at <http://www.carecentre.org.za/> select 'diet in the wild - a study' and find a full list of species available and those selected for eating, in both a drought and non-drought year. What at least one population eats is well established.

Is there some chance you could share the citation for this rare piece of scientific literature. I know a few zoo librarians who would probably help me find it. I do volunteer research in a library myself - hence the "always more to read" POV that I write.

I know 28 tortoises would probably disagree, but 6-7% survival you relate is high odds compared to so many other importations of tortoises - commercial or otherwise. I guess no deaths would be optimal, but maybe they were already stressed if it is a war zone as you describe.

I found that IATA more or less regulates shipping of animals - unless it was a private aircraft.

I don't understand the many references to pressure in your narrative - do you mean air pressure at the altitude the tortoises were collected - and then transitioned to the altitude of San Diego, via a yet different pressure in the plane? It's my understanding animals are shipped at 'cabin air pressure' and at least enough oxygen so the pilot does not black out.

Where about were the tortoises collected - what country, region, etc.? Unless a secret, no matter, CITES docs are public records. It would be simpler to see the paper you describe.

I've worked in a lab where diseased plants were collected on purpose and kept in a large walk-in 'rooms' made of stainless steel with a great deal of mechanical air and water handling apparatus so no contamination would occur with the next one down the line in the lab. Not so complicated a thing to build, even with plywood sheeted with bathroom plastic panels.

I think an isolation chamber could be built for under $1000.00 that would be 4 x 8 sheets of plywood, sheeted with white fiberglass panels and even include a isolation pass-through. My husband can build anything. He works in a plant research facility where such isolation chambers as I describe are in common use. Plant-insect interactions and the like is his profession, at least killing those insects.

I find many ways to diagnose stress in literature. Some sea turtle researchers talk about wild collected blood samples having to be taken in less than 15-20 minutes of capture or stress will invalidate the blood sample by the sea turtle releasing stress hormone into their blood. Do you know how stress was determined with these animals? Was it mostly a crowding issue?

Thanks so much for what you have shared, it is informative and helpful.

Alice S.
 

Vincentdhr

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The main expense was the other animals, but you have to take into account the fact that they are not a grouping tortoise in the wild. They are sparsely distributed over their range, so there was a lot of driving involved in finding the little guys. The paper I mentioned is mainly about the other African animals, just a page is devoted to the tent tortoises. I will try to dig up a copy and post the title here, so it will be easier to find. They were collected from Botswana and Namibia. The aircraft involved was a private aircraft chartered by the zoo. Most animals are shipped at cabin pressure, however, this can kill the more delicate species. When the tent tortoises were collected, the pressure was taken at each individual location. Then, the average pressure was determined and the sealed shipping terrarium was pressurized to that temperature. We have found that this prevents most of the losses that are associated with shipping. Another thing that we learned with the two male tent tortoises, is that you can't use ANY materials other than glass for the walls of the enclosure. They tried to eat the wood and fibreglass display tank that they were put into. Actually, the CITES documents are only "public" if you go to the place they are held (in this case the zoo) and pay a fee (normally about $10) to get a hold of a copy of the documents. The stress came from no where. After they died, toxicology said that they had extremely high levels of cortisol and norepinephrine. They seem to start producing this for no reason in extremely high amounts a while after they are collected. The terrarium they were put into was enormous, it was not crowding that caused the stress, simply an adaptation that happens to make them extremely difficult to collect. I see no reason to collect these animals to raise in your home, their population would be depleted a little more and you would have a couple of interesting pets for every thirty that you originally collected. It is not sustainable. Just because you CAN do something doesn't mean that it is ethical, right, or logical to do. As stated previously, if you want a tortoise similar to this one, go with a Pancake or an Egyptian. If you care in the slightest for this species, you should just leave them where they are and get an easier to acclimate, more readily available species.
 

Alice.S

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Hi,

Thanks for the more detail Vincetdhr, I appreciate your point of view as well as your relating the greater detail. For the most part, what you say about tents is true for all tortoises. I understand the giant African Spur tortoise is now considered extinct over much of is former range. But then I found a whole suite of web pages by Victor Loehr about some of the Homopus tortoises, they too seem to be very 'delicate' and yet he has balanced in-situ with ex-situ research, that has helped the conservation authorities in South Africa better understand the species he is interested in - H. signatus.

I read that P. geometrica is now in ever dire straights as a major conservation area has burned. In this journal called "the tortoise" is the article I read. Now in-situ as well as ex-situ husbandry protocols have to be determined. Consider the value that could be gained by using Kalahari tents as a model for for the truly endangered Geometric tortoise.

I understand they have different needs, but one as a model for the other is somewhat reasonable. Maybe your zoo can be helpful to the South African authorities who now have the urgent need to know about P.g. care - based on your experience with the Kalahari tents.

Well, more reading and research. Some people go to gyms to run in place, I go to libraries to learn in place, I run on paths outside myself, and will follow that as my example with tortoises as well - go from the "gym" to "outside paths" when I teach myself more, thanks for the tutoring, I hope to hear more from other people about the smaller tortoises.

Alice S.
 

Vincentdhr

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The only problem with this reasoning is that the care of the Geometric Tortoise is already known. They are not quite as delicate, but the care does differ. The best conservation in this case is simply to keep their habitat pristine, not allow people to take them from their homeland, and if the tortoises are extremely endangered, then possibly moving a small group to the same part of their range. Enough is known about this tortoise to allow us to keep it from extinction if we simply take a harsher stance against developing its home. People shouldn't take on rare or endangered tortoises simply because they look more attractive than another more easily obtainable species. Such species should be cared for either in their natural environment or in zoos that can provide adequate care and eventual reintroduction for the species.
 

Weldd

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I couldn't agree with Vincent more. With all of the cbb tortoises available in the hobby, the idea of trying to obtain these extraordinarily delicate tortoises really makes no sense. Having very legitimate experience, unlimited time and resources to attempt to maintain these is obviously not enough if SDZ was unsuccessful. If habitat protection is not possible then setting up assurance colonies in the areas where these tortoises live, similar to the efforts in Madagascar, makes much more sense.
 

Vincentdhr

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This site just shows a few pictures. It doesn't say whether this is a zoo or private keeper. You also don't know where this person is located and how much they spent on the enclosures and tortoises nor how long the tortoises lived or are living. Just because there are a few pictures of something online doesn't mean that it is a good idea to try it.
 
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