Jigsaw died

Hi
Its with really sad news I am checking in here today.

Yesterday Jigsaw died.I have no idea why and saw no signs of illness.
He or she was eating , sleeping, drinking, enjoying soaks etc.
I am so disappointed as I had no chance to try to help as this was so very sudden.

The only observation I have had recently was that Jigsaw was softer on the underside than the other baby of the same age. I know the babies start out soft and gradually harden up so I wondered if there should be a noticeable difference between the 2 babies.
they were hatched around April 2011 so at this point they were 8 mths old.

I have not had babies before so any suggestions on when to expect the shell to feel firmer appreciated.

They were fed as recommended here on mixed organic leaves, tortoise nutrition powder, oxbow hay sprinkled on their moist leaves and a good sprinkle of calcium, vit D3 powder.
they also got fresh shaved cacti pads every few days in addition to their leaves. They had 2 water dishes that they both used and I soaked them every few days in warm water to ensure they are hydrated.They have a MVB on for a good 12-14 hrs for heat and UV , a moist hide and cuttle fish in their enclosure too.

have I missed anything-I am so sad this happened!!

Any suggestions or does this just happen to youngsters sometimes-BY the way this was the one with the missing scutes -unusual shell patterning. not sure if that was relevant to anything????


I hope you all had a Great Christmas anyway and have a very happy healthy 2012!!

So sorry for your loss... Once again, my heart hurts for another....
RIP little buddy

So very sorry for your loss....

So sorry for your loss. One would think that at that age you would be past the worry stage of them dieing. Mine is 9 months, leopard, and realizing how much can still go wrong, no matter how well they are cared for.

I'm so sorry, Louise.

My heart is heavy for you.....rest in peace Jigsaw

Sorry to here about you're lost .
R.I.P. Jigsaw

I'm so so sorry. I have had some of these soft babies and I can't figure it out. I raise them all the same and some harden nicely, while now and then one doesn't. I have had siblings raised exactly the same as another set of siblings, yet one set never hardens. I have come to believe it has something to do with the mother and the amount of calcium the egg has, but I have no idea. Again, I'm really sorry!

I am sorry for you. (Hugs)

I am so very sorry to hear that

It's so hard to tell if there's something serious going on, even past that hatchling stage...

I have a 10 month old Hermann, who was having some dry eye issues--nothing serious it seemed as he was eating, etc--so we brought him to the vet recently and it turned out he was very ill. Far sicker than we could have imagined...you never know

My point is---I'm sure you did everything right! It sounds like it to me. Even past the hatchling stage, their health can be very difficult to gauge it seems...They're experts at hiding their pains and illnesses.

My heart goes out to you

Oh no!! Poor baby- may he rest in peace. You did what you could do. I'm sorry.

So sorry for your loss. x

I am sorry for your loss RIP Jigsaw

If Flipper is as healthy as you indicate, then the likely (but tragic) scenario is that nothing you could've done can change the fact that Jigsaw just wasn't born as healthy.

Condolenses...sometimes baby tortoises just die, no matter what you do, just as some humans babies just don't thrive, no matter what you do...

I'm so sorry.

This is so sad. I am sorry for your loss. Especially since your other baby is thriving, it seems like it was a health issue from birth, as others have suggested. This is my biggest fear with our two babies

Thank you everyone for your kind messages.

I still can't believe the baby died so unexpectedly.

The person that bred these babies is replacing the one I lost so That is very kind. They believe too that I was doing all I could for the babies.

Thank you all again for the supportive comments etc it really does help.

If anyone with babies of a similar age can tell me how hard their baby's shell is, I would like to know.(I realise it is hard to describe in words) Jigsaw's shell was quite soft underneath, Flipper's shell is harder but not really hard like an adult's shell yet.(I can still move it a little if I press it) I really don't know what is normal? I read that they should harden quickly on the chelonia site and then read a different opinion on another site stating that they can be soft for 12-18 mths-so I am unsure of what to think?

Thanks

Sorry, Louise... heartbreaking to lose your little beetle... hate to open again the subject, but you may consider in analising the cause of Jigsaw's death in the infos from the link below... at least for the future.

About the consequences of not hibernating babies of temperate tortoises

Irefutable FACTS-statistics!- for the ones that may keep telling their old records: average hatchling and juvenile mortality when BRUMATE: 5,5%; NONBRUMATING: 27%- that is for the first year. Older ones manage to get better and better survival rates (that's why they keep telling "tortoises do not need hibernation"- they usually deal with older ones or even adults), but I think those percents speak for themselves...

I hope that all tortoise keepers manage to get rid of that old, die hard conception... many young tortoises will be saved this way... I don't understand, but ALL experienced European breeders and keepers know, as a Kindergarten basic knowledge, that temperate tortoises should brumate! While in the US, persists the same anthropomorphysing attitude towards a tortoise needs- "they like it warm, like us".

There is NO debate on European forums about this subject, it's ridiculous simple- all advices are invariable: HIBERNATION!... while here, it can start a real fire; so much energy invested in (not convincing) arguments against brumation, when it would be much easier for those adepts to teach people how to prepare the animals for correct brumation. Maybe some breeder secrets to defend?? Hard to believe this knowledge simply... escaped, for so long... Hope not, I'd prefer ignorance as a cause.

I promised not to speak anymore on that subject, but I think that beginner keepers have the right to hear as well the other "opinion", and maybe using it for improving their knowledge level for the wellbeing of their (and mines) beloved tortoises... and when a simple opinion is sustained with FACTS... it usually bears other name: TRUTH.

Hope it will help you, Louise, and others too.

All the best!

Oh Louise, I'm so sorry to hear of Jigsaw's passing. As you may have read I lost one of the hatchlings I got too from that batch and it too had a soft "belly". Maybe it was something we have been up against since the get-go.

In any event, I am glad that it is being replaced for you, and wish you nothing but luck this time around.

I find that I am now a nervous tort mom to my 12-month old Shelldon. I yank him out of bed when he has slept too long, soak him when he looks groggy and pay very close attention to all of his behaviours. I don't know what else to do, it is so hard to lose one. I think your care sounds first-rate though, and all will be fine this time.

RIP Jigsaw.

So should these babies be hibernating all winter? I too am a nervous Mom. I just woke them up to try to make them eat b/c their greens went untouched today (one ate, one went right back to bed mad). Tomorrow, I am going to feel their undersides to see if they are soft... I have no point of reference, though...