Terra-Cotta Water Dishes

Hi All,

I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?

Could they be the source of some infections or diseases? I'll agree with the porous nature of terra-cotta there's plenty of space for bacteria and fungi to settle into.

If you think about it, you wouldn't eat or drink from a porous terra-cotta dish or glass that's not glazed so why are we using porous saucers for our tortoises.

I dunno, maybe plastic ones are a better alternative.

Comments?

Phil

PSLIMO said:

Hi All,

I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?

Could they be the source of some infections or diseases? I'll agree with the porous nature of terra-cotta there's plenty of space for bacteria and fungi to settle into.

If you think about it, you wouldn't eat or drink from a porous terra-cotta dish or glass that's not glazed so why are we using porous saucers for our tortoises.

I dunno, maybe plastic ones are a better alternative.

Comments?

Phil

Click to expand...

You do understand the concept of soap & water or "sanitize" setting on your dishwasher, don't you? Frankly, I see enough on " Bar Rescue" kitchens to make me rethink ever eating out again.

Let me guess, the pet store sanitizes all of those rock water dishes before putting them on their shelves. Or maybe their dish sales are off...

Hi Jan,

They weren't trying to sell me anything.

What they're suggesting is an unglazed terracotta dish being porous is very hard to sanitize compared to a glazed one that you can wipe clean.

It's a fair argument that if we don't eat or drink out of unglazed terracotta why are we using them for our animals.

I'm thinking they make plastic pot saucers at Home Depot and might be a better alternative. Same shape, same size only a non-porous surface.

PSLIMO said:

Hi All,

I had very interesting conversation at my local pet store about water dishes and how the terra-cotta ones could pose health issues for our torts. Is it worth looking into to see if there's any merit in the concerns?

Could they be the source of some infections or diseases? I'll agree with the porous nature of terra-cotta there's plenty of space for bacteria and fungi to settle into.

If you think about it, you wouldn't eat or drink from a porous terra-cotta dish or glass that's not glazed so why are we using porous saucers for our tortoises.

I dunno, maybe plastic ones are a better alternative.

Comments?

Phil

Click to expand...

I've been using them for decades. I've been starting tiny hatchings on them for as long as I can remember. Literally 1000s of sulcatas, leopards, Russians, stars, and a few more species. I've grown dozens of tortoises of several species from hatchling to adults on ever increasing sizes of terra cotta dishes. I've had zero diseases or infections from terra cotta plant saucers. I think if there were some problem with them, I would have seen at least a hint of it by now.

Reptiles being bred and housed properly have immune strength to combat a wide variety of microbes. In the wild, they live on the ground. The world is a dirty place. Filthy.

As in the wild, a textured captive surface is far preferable over smooth (slippery). Glass-smooth surfaces can incubate as much algae, mold, and bacterial cultures as any other (yes, cycled aquarium, I'm thinking of you).

And, like, dump out water before it becomes stagnant. Periodically wash stuff to prevent overgrowth of microbial what-have-you. Not rocket science.

No one is stopping animal supply companies from producing/selling appropriate equipment and then providing proper instruction about how to use and maintain said equipment.

Hi Tom,

I understand your passion and contribution to this forum and it's always in the best interest of our animals.

The question? Is it better to use water dishes that aren't as porous and can harbor more bacteria and fungi.

If humans don't use unglazed terracotta is there a better alternative?

Using human behavior as a determination of what’s safe/unsafe for an animal isn’t really ideal, chimps eat raw monkey flesh/brain, but that wouldn’t be “safe” for a human despite chinos being our closest relative.

I’d definitely be interested in a scientific study on the specific types of bacteria that typically colonize terracotta, but until that exists I’d take Toms vast experience over baseless claims from pet stores any day.

PSLIMO said:

Hi Tom,

I understand your passion and contribution to this forum and it's always in the best interest of our animals.

The question? Is it better to use water dishes that aren't as porous and can harbor more bacteria and fungi.

If humans don't use unglazed terracotta is there a better alternative?

Click to expand...

Glazed ones are too slippery. I don't trust what the plastic ones are made of. I don't like drinking out of plastic bottles either. I'd have no qualms whatsoever about drinking from my tortoise's terra cotta saucers. Preferably before they've been in them doing their business.

The goal of my post was to point out that your concerns are unfounded. There is no disease or sanitary risks posed to our tortoises by using regular terra cotta saucers. They are the best of all possible worlds for tortoise drinking bowls. The right depth, the right type of sides, and their untreated surface offers traction to wet tortoise feet which is very important to inspire confidence in the tortoises and make them comfortable with their bowls. Many tortoises ignore slippery bowls, recognizing the danger they pose. None of my 1000s of babies have avoided or ignored their terra cotta saucers with their ample traction and navagatable angles, side heights, and depths.

What you heard at the pet store was akin to: "Sulcatas come from the desert. They need hot dry conditions. Any humidity or moisture will cause them to get shell rot and respiratory infections. Don't even use a water bowl to keep humidity low and desert-like. They get all their water from their food. There is no water bowl in the desert, right?" No joke, I used to tell people non-sense like this because that is what I was taught in the 80s and early 90s. Its what was written in ALL the books. Its what all the breeders and pet stores said. It all sounds so logical, but it is wrong. Dead wrong. Pet stores are literal gold mines of bad info, dangerous products, and poor care advice.

Go back to your local pet store and tell them how I say to raise stars, leopards and sulcatas. Explain the warm humid closed chamber methods and daily soaks to them. Watch what they say. Then tell them that MVBs cause pyramiding and pyramiding has nothing to do with diet. Stand back a few paces when you do this. Their heads may explode.

Hi Gut's,

Now that's the voice of reason I was looking for and thank you.

I don't know what I don't know and I'm not afraid to ask reasonable questions not claims.

I only ask the questions in the best interest of my leopard

Guts said:

Using human behavior as a determination of what’s safe/unsafe for an animal isn’t really ideal, chimps eat raw monkey flesh/brain, but that wouldn’t be “safe” for a human despite chinos being our closest relative.

I’d definitely be interested in a scientific study on the specific types of bacteria that typically colonize terracotta, but until that exists I’d take Toms vast experience over baseless claims from pet stores any day.

Click to expand...

Thank you and good points.

No one is disputing that terra cotta saucers can harbor and grow bacteria and other stuff. They can. Many of mine are coated with algae. But as ZenHerper pointed out, even the smooth glass on the inside of an aquarium is a hotbed of bacterial activity and colonization, and thank goodness for that, as those vital nitrifying bacteria keep the water safe and keep our fish healthy.

What I'm trying to say is not that terra cotta saucers are pillars of sterility. I'm saying they they pose no threat and no risk that any other type of bowl doesn't also pose. I dump them out, wipe them out, rinse them and refill. Every day. No problem.

PSLIMO said:

Hi Gut's,

Now that's the voice of reason I was looking for and thank you.

I don't know what I don't know and I'm not afraid to ask reasonable questions not claims.

I only ask the questions in the best interest of my leopard

Click to expand...

This is good. I'm arguing with you, but in a GOOD way. Its good to ask questions and be skeptical. I don't want people to just take my word for things because I said so. Question these things. Its in the questioning, arguing and explaining that so much more is learned. Everyone reading now has a better idea of why terra cotta saucers work better than plastic or glazed water bowls. Everyone reading can relax a little more knowing that their tortoises are safe, even when their water bowl isn't as clean and sterile as the drinking glasses in our cupboards. It was a good question, good thread and good discussion.

What's next???

Tom,

Slow down your passion is exhausting.

Once again, that's the voice of reason I was looking for and also the reason I asked it on this forum.

And once again, all in the best interest of my leopard. Who has finally settled into a routine and stop pouting in her new enclosure. It's very rewarding to see these animals thrive in captivity as they are truely remarkable animals.

It seems like the terra cotta saucers they are selling now leak. I fill them up with water and then they are empty in the morning.

Ahhhhhh, Tom...

I guess that's what's next, LOL!

Carol S said:

It seems like the terra cotta saucers they are selling now leak. I fill them up with water and then they are empty in the morning.

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I get about one out of ten like that. I call them "seepers" and I use those ones for food instead of water. I usually buy stacks of them to have on hand in case one gets dropped and breaks. Some of my tortoises really make a mess, so I swap the bowls out for clean ones and then wash out and sun dry the dirty ones for the next day.

Tom said:

This is good. I'm arguing with you, but in a GOOD way.

What's next???

Click to expand...

Tom, the entire time I've been reading this thread I've been hearing you say that "everything was fine until one day it wasn't". I realize you use that phrase for entirely different circumstances, but that doesn't make it less appropriate here.

Don't get me wrong. I use terra cotta saucers for Sulafat, and up until now never even thought of replacing them. But now I wonder.

The outbreak of austwickia has frightened me, as well as caused me to look at tort sanitation with a keener eye. I agree with everything you said about the saucers. I also know that contaminated water and food are a huge portion of how diseases spread.

At what point do we give up the old way and change to something new as a precaution, rather than as a reaction when the unthinkable has already happened?

PSLIMO said:

Hi Jan,

They weren't trying to sell me anything.

What they're suggesting is an unglazed terracotta dish being porous is very hard to sanitize compared to a glazed one that you can wipe clean.

It's a fair argument that if we don't eat or drink out of unglazed terracotta why are we using them for our animals.

I'm thinking they make plastic pot saucers at Home Depot and might be a better alternative. Same shape, same size only a non-porous surface.

Click to expand...

I know from following threads on the forum that several members have worked at pet stores. Most

KarenSoCal said:

Tom, the entire time I've been reading this thread I've been hearing you say that "everything was fine until one day it wasn't". I realize you use that phrase for entirely different circumstances, but that doesn't make it less appropriate here.

Don't get me wrong. I use terra cotta saucers for Sulafat, and up until now never even thought of replacing them. But now I wonder.

The outbreak of austwickia has frightened me, as well as caused me to look at tort sanitation with a keener eye. I agree with everything you said about the saucers. I also know that contaminated water and food are a huge portion of how diseases spread.

At what point do we give up the old way and change to something new as a precaution, rather than as a reaction when the unthinkable has already happened?

Click to expand...

@mastershake @Tom & anyone else, is there a consensus that you can't sanitize water dishes & the like via dishwasher on sanitize cycle?

I've seen some indication that only ammonia might "sterilize" equipment, dishes, enclosures, etc., from the bacteria. The better part of discretion for everything used in connection with the diseased reptile is to throw it out.

If that's the case, then what are exotic vets doing with instruments, etc., they use to examine possibly infected reptiles?

I don't know about the dishwasher. I'm my dishwasher, never run the thing.

I would think a bath in boiling water would sterilize bowls, including terra cotta, but I don't know if terra cotta would survive the boiling. Since it's porous, it might explode.

I believe vets sterilize their instruments like hospitals do...they get autoclaved, which is a type of superheating the instrument. But more and more they are moving toward disposable instrument sets. They are cheaper than the sterilization process, and cut down on biohazard risk.

I'd like to also say that I don't want my post to start a panic re' austwickia. I used it as an example that we are all familiar with by now, but I don't believe ordinary keepers are at risk unless they buy a hatchling from a facility that is infected. Even without austwickia, the selection of a breeder/vendor is a task that must be taken seriously and requires research.

KarenSoCal said:

At what point do we give up the old way and change to something new as a precaution, rather than as a reaction when the unthinkable has already happened?

Click to expand...

This is true and totally fair. Also very easy to answer: You make a change when you see a problem. When the old way isn't working, or when you aren't getting the result you want.

Not the case here in any way. Frankly, I don't remember terra cotta saucers being recommended in the old days either. I used to use reptile shop bowls.

Similarly: "Sulcatas should be fed lots of grass." Another old way that works, and is not a problem in any way. The old ways that need to be changed are the old ways that cause pyramiding, death through dehydration, and malnutrition.

I'm no expert but I'll say that I tried the terra cotta saucer for waterl for a couple of months at the recommendation of folks here. The damn thing leaked all over and got very slimy.
I found a textured plastic saucer when I went back to the store for a glazed terra cotta one (which I cannot find). The plastic one has worked well for me so far and contains the water much better.
If I ever see a glazed terra cotta saucer, I will give that a try.

With that said, Gabby rarely goes into his water dish. I soak him twice a week and he gets juicy greens. Could that be why?