Any advice? (enclosure size)

Hey all! My name is Brenden.

Nearly 4 years ago now when I was a naive younger adult I purchased a Russian Tortoise from a PetSmart without really knowing what I was getting into.

I love tortoises, they are my favorite animals and when I got my first "big" paycheck I knew exactly what I wanted.

Now, 4 years later with more experience under my belt....I am conflicted on if I am doing things right. While I always thought I knew a decent amount about tortoises, I been having second thoughts.

My tortoise is named Michelangelo. He is a full grown adult.

He lives in a 50 gallon tank. Has UVB/Heat Lamp I replace regularly. Has a log hide, eco earth substrate to dig into, and a large water dish. His usual diet is a mix of greens and other veggies.

Now my biggest concern is that he is not in a large enough enclosure. While he doesn't show any signs of distress (scratching the glass, climbing it, so on) and he seems relatively content...something just feels wrong. His shell is fine, he eats/poops/sleeps fine, and acts pretty much like any other tortoise...I feel like I am somehow failing him.

I can not provide an outdoor enclosure as I am in an apartment, but I do plan on moving. Even then I still think I'd have to keep it indoor. I was going to dedicate an entire room in this new home to my animals and I wanted to build an indoor enclosure for Mikey.

I just want to know. Is the 50 gallon I have him in animal abuse? While he moves around and shows no signs of distress, I just feel awful keeping him in it.

What do you guys do for indoor enclosures?

BrendenF10 said:

Hey all! My name is Brenden.

Nearly 4 years ago now when I was a naive younger adult I purchased a Russian Tortoise from a PetSmart without really knowing what I was getting into.

I love tortoises, they are my favorite animals and when I got my first "big" paycheck I knew exactly what I wanted.

Now, 4 years later with more experience under my belt....I am conflicted on if I am doing things right. While I always thought I knew a decent amount about tortoises, I been having second thoughts.

My tortoise is named Michelangelo. He is a full grown adult.

He lives in a 50 gallon tank. Has UVB/Heat Lamp I replace regularly. Has a log hide, eco earth substrate to dig into, and a large water dish. His usual diet is a mix of greens and other veggies.

Now my biggest concern is that he is not in a large enough enclosure. While he doesn't show any signs of distress (scratching the glass, climbing it, so on) and he seems relatively content...something just feels wrong. His shell is fine, he eats/poops/sleeps fine, and acts pretty much like any other tortoise...I feel like I am somehow failing him.

Click to expand...

It sounds like your tortoise is still not living the best life it could live under these conditions. You can definitely improve a lot of things besides the obvious, being the diet.

Read this guide and follow the guidelines listed:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/

BrendenF10 said:

I can not provide an outdoor enclosure as I am in an apartment, but I do plan on moving. Even then I still think I'd have to keep it indoor. I was going to dedicate an entire room in this new home to my animals and I wanted to build an indoor enclosure for Mikey.

I just want to know. Is the 50 gallon I have him in animal abuse? While he moves around and shows no signs of distress, I just feel awful keeping him in it.

What do you guys do for indoor enclosures?

Click to expand...

An adult Russian tortoise or any small species of tortoises requires a minimum of a 8ft x 4ft sized enclosure. Tortoises require a large space to exercise, explore, and thermoregulate. In a small enclosure the tortoise is forced to always stay by or directly near the basking bulb. In a large enclosure a tortoise will have more options and locations to receive their heating and cooling needs from.

Tortoises do not belong on the floor of anyone's home. They need their own dedicated space away from other animals and possible predators.

The cheapest way to obtain an 8ft x 4ft enclosure is to build one yourself. That would be the cheapest option. Other indoor options include:
1. 8ft length grow tents on amazon for around $150-200.
2. Expensive stock tanks.
3. High-end pre-made plastic reptile enclosures.

Minority2 said:

It sounds like your tortoise is still not living the best life it could live under these conditions. You can definitely improve a lot of things besides the obvious, being the diet.

Read this guide and follow the guidelines listed:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/



An adult Russian tortoise or any small species of tortoises requires a minimum of a 8ft x 4ft sized enclosure. Tortoises require a large space to exercise, explore, and thermoregulate. In a small enclosure the tortoise is forced to always stay by or directly near the basking bulb. In a large enclosure a tortoise will have more options and locations to receive their heating and cooling needs from.

Tortoises do not belong on the floor of anyone's home. They need their own dedicated space away from other animals and possible predators.

The cheapest way to obtain an 8ft x 4ft enclosure is to build one yourself. That would be the cheapest option. Other indoor options include:
1. 8ft length grow tents on amazon for around $150-200.
2. Expensive stock tanks.
3. High-end pre-made plastic reptile enclosures.

Click to expand...

The diet is an issue? Everybody I have talked to has stated that you're supposed to feed them a mixed diet of greens, some fruit, dandelions, so on. That is what I been feeding him.

As far as the enclosure, thank you! The 50 gal worked fine when he was a baby, but as time progressed he has just grown so quickly.

I currently keep said enclosure on a table. Definitely will never have him on a floor.

I saw the Zoomed Tortoise House on Amazon? I was thinking of getting 2 of them and putting them together?

I think it would be like 6 foot by 4. I was wondering if that would work?

BrendenF10 said:

The diet is an issue? Everybody I have talked to has stated that you're supposed to feed them a mixed diet of greens, some fruit, dandelions, so on. That is what I been feeding him.

As far as the enclosure, thank you! The 50 gal worked fine when he was a baby, but as time progressed he has just grown so quickly.

I currently keep said enclosure on a table. Definitely will never have him on a floor.

I saw the Zoomed Tortoise House on Amazon? I was thinking of getting 2 of them and putting them together?

I think it would be like 6 foot by 4. I was wondering if that would work?

Click to expand...

Ah okay. I read that guide and saw why "grocery food" is bad. I knew that part. I been supplementing it with calcium.

Finding grass and such is difficult due to living in a literal desert. A lot of it has to be bought online and it's going to get pricey :/

I see why that is an issue if I wasn't supplementing. I forgot to mention that I DO supplement it and it's not just greens/veggies. I do try to feed a mix of other foods when I can find them.

BrendenF10 said:

Ah okay. I read that guide and saw why "grocery food" is bad. I knew that part. I been supplementing it with calcium.

Finding grass and such is difficult due to living in a literal desert. A lot of it has to be bought online and it's going to get pricey :/

I see why that is an issue if I wasn't supplementing. I forgot to mention that I DO supplement it and it's not just greens/veggies. I do try to feed a mix of other foods when I can find them.

Click to expand...

You can buy wheatgrass seeds - pretty cheap and plant it in small pots around the house. They grow fast and you can provide your little guy with some fresh assortment of grassy greens. I even use glass containers after yogurt to grow it. My cat loves it and the dogs are stealing some as well. Give it a try.

glitch206 said:

You can buy wheatgrass seeds - pretty cheap and plant it in small pots around the house. They grow fast and you can provide your little guy with some fresh assortment of grassy greens. I even use glass containers after yogurt to grow it. My cat loves it and the dogs are stealing some as well. Give it a try.

Click to expand...

That may actually work. I am terrible at growing anything to be honest, but if it grows fast I figure it will grow before I inevitably kill it.

I am really just worried about his home. He is a healthy tortoise. No beak issues, no shell issues (aside from what he had when I got him). He doesn't seem bothered by the glass. So on.

I know he isn't a wild caught...my wallet definitely knew when I bought him lol

That being said. I was wondering if the Zoo Med Wood Tortoise Homes are fine? Obviously not one alone, but if I took 2 and combined them and set it on a table with UVB and Heat...think it would work?

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00167S5EY/?tag=exoticpetnetw-20

BrendenF10 said:

The diet is an issue? Everybody I have talked to has stated that you're supposed to feed them a mixed diet of greens, some fruit, dandelions, so on. That is what I been feeding him.

Click to expand...

With respect, everyone you've spoken to is giving you the same outdated data from decades back when researchers hardly knew anything about tortoises and went with the husbandry protocols of what initially worked for them in studies that would've likely been considered small and inconclusive in today's standards.

1. Russian tortoises cannot fully process sugars. It's not only bad for them but can also cause health issues in the long run.
2. Store bought greens are not only not fibrous enough but can also, again, cause health complications if eaten in excess over time when combined with poor heating conditions.

Tortoises require a varied diet of flowers, broad leaf weeds, and succulents. Russians don't often eat hay or grass. This is the type of diet they're naturally known to eat in the wild.

Check tortoise table regarding safe and non-safe foods and how accumulation of consistently eating not very safe foods can cause what health issues:

BrendenF10 said:

As far as the enclosure, thank you! The 50 gal worked fine when he was a baby, but as time progressed he has just grown so quickly.

I currently keep said enclosure on a table. Definitely will never have him on a floor.

I saw the Zoomed Tortoise House on Amazon? I was thinking of getting 2 of them and putting them together?

I think it would be like 6 foot by 4. I was wondering if that would work?

Click to expand...

In my opinion, it's not worth the trouble, cost, and labor to renovate two shoddy zoomed tortoise houses into a single enclosure, especially when considering the amount of money spent could've made instead used to build a far more appealing enclosure that you can enjoy for years to come. Buy once, cry once.

BrendenF10 said:

Ah okay. I read that guide and saw why "grocery food" is bad. I knew that part. I been supplementing it with calcium.

Finding grass and such is difficult due to living in a literal desert. A lot of it has to be bought online and it's going to get pricey :/

I see why that is an issue if I wasn't supplementing. I forgot to mention that I DO supplement it and it's not just greens/veggies. I do try to feed a mix of other foods when I can find them.

Click to expand...

Tortoises are expensive to keep. You live in Arizona. You can easily find most of the broad leaf weeds and succulents around your neighborhood. You can also buy seed mixes and grow them yourself. It doesn't have to get pricey if you don't want it to be. Many members go outdoors foraging for pesticide and chemical free plants whenever they have free time.

Supplementing a bit of calcium here and there is not enough to offset a poor diet. An adult tortoise has the capacity to live in the worst conditions imaginable. Just because it's still living doesn't mean what some owners are doing is enough.

Minority2 said:

With respect, everyone you've spoken to is giving you the same outdated data from decades back when researchers hardly knew anything about tortoises and went with the husbandry protocols of what initially worked for them in studies that would've likely been considered small and inconclusive in today's standards.

1. Russian tortoises cannot fully process sugars. It's not only bad for them but can also cause health issues in the long run.
2. Store bought greens are not only not fibrous enough but can also, again, cause health complications if eaten in excess over time when combined with poor heating conditions.

Tortoises require a varied diet of flowers, broad leaf weeds, and succulents. Russians don't often eat hay or grass. This is the type of diet they're naturally known to eat in the wild.

Check tortoise table regarding safe and non-safe foods and how accumulation of consistently eating not very safe foods can cause what health issues:

The Tortoise Table - Home

The Tortoise Table plant database and resource site for Tortoise owners

www.thetortoisetable.org.uk

In my opinion, it's not worth the trouble, cost, and labor to renovate two shoddy zoomed tortoise houses into a single enclosure, especially when considering the amount of money spent could've made instead used to build a far more appealing enclosure that you can enjoy for years to come. Buy once, cry once.



Tortoises are expensive to keep. You live in Arizona. You can easily find most of the broad leaf weeds and succulents around your neighborhood. You can also buy seed mixes and grow them yourself. It doesn't have to get pricey if you don't want it to be. Many members go outdoors foraging for pesticide and chemical free plants whenever they have free time.

Supplementing a bit of calcium here and there is not enough to offset a poor diet. An adult tortoise has the capacity to live in the worst conditions imaginable. Just because it's still living doesn't mean what some owners are doing is enough.

Click to expand...

As far as taking succulents/grasses and such from my neighborhood, I actually can't. I'd get in trouble for doing that in my city plus a lot of it is sprayed down with chemicals. However as far as growing the wheatgrass, that actually doesn't seem like a bad idea. I could probably start doing that.

Yeah I was just thinking of the ZooMed option because I wanted something I could tear down relatively easy when I move. However, I figure a proper sized enclosure probably won't be easy regardless of how I do it. I am also not the handiest person. I could likely build a nice enclosure though, figure it's worth a shot.

As far as the sugars go, I don't feed fruit often but I didn't know they were actually dangerous for them. That is useful to know, thank you.

Now, I kinda wanted his enclosure to be at least semi-sustainable. Would it be easier to just plant a bunch of edible plants in his enclosure? I know you mentioned a few good ones, but if I went that route what do you think is the best options for that? Obviously I want to avoid any plants that require high humidity. So succulents (as you mentioned), so on.

BrendenF10 said:

As far as taking succulents/grasses and such from my neighborhood, I actually can't. I'd get in trouble for doing that in my city plus a lot of it is sprayed down with chemicals. However as far as growing the wheatgrass, that actually doesn't seem like a bad idea. I could probably start doing that.

Yeah I was just thinking of the ZooMed option because I wanted something I could tear down relatively easy when I move. However, I figure a proper sized enclosure probably won't be easy regardless of how I do it. I am also not the handiest person. I could likely build a nice enclosure though, figure it's worth a shot.

As far as the sugars go, I don't feed fruit often but I didn't know they were actually dangerous for them. That is useful to know, thank you.

Now, I kinda wanted his enclosure to be at least semi-sustainable. Would it be easier to just plant a bunch of edible plants in his enclosure? I know you mentioned a few good ones, but if I went that route what do you think is the best options for that? Obviously I want to avoid any plants that require high humidity. So succulents (as you mentioned), so on.

Click to expand...

The reason why I dislike the zoo med tortoise houses is because they're not built to the right specs for tortoises. Tortoises need high walls to prevent them from escaping. They need high ceilings to allow your fixtures to hang above a certain height to prevent heating fixtures from burning the tortoise's carapace. The dedicated hide boxes in their designs also wastes a lot of trekking space for the tortoise. It's just a badly designed product, similar to the ones you often see from UK pet shops. Putting two of them together is still not enough because tortoises need a table with a lot of width. They need to not feel boxed in. A 3ft x 2ft box x 2 = 6ft x 2ft, which essentially still does not provide enough width for an adult tortoise.

Humidity is a good thing for tortoises of any age. Dryness is bad. Again, ignore what you've previously learned about tortoises and follow the guide I linked. Even adults can benefit from 80% humidity levels.

I personally do not plant in my indoor enclosures. It's too much of a hassle to get it right and the tortoise will often try to destroy anything that isn't firmly rooted down. Other members have had success but I myself just prefer not to deal with all of that. I have enough work as it is with the tortoises that are outside.

From xMario https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/grow-tent-enclosure.177113/

Blackdog1714 said:

From xMario https://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/grow-tent-enclosure.177113/
View attachment 304901

Click to expand...

That is actually kinda brilliant and may work for me since I am in an apartment

BrendenF10 said:

That is actually kinda brilliant and may work for me since I am in an apartment

Click to expand...

It is and of course I found it after I built mine way cheaper materials and almost no labor and extremely portable. Heck when you upgrade your tort then you have a way to grow his food and plants!

Blackdog1714 said:

It is and of course I found it after I built mine way cheaper materials and almost no labor and extremely portable. Heck when you upgrade your tort then you have a way to grow his food and plants!
View attachment 304902View attachment 304903

Click to expand...

Exactly. The problem I keep running into is space. That growtent is HUGE. It would take up most of my living room. I am thinking an 8 foot by 4 foot table design would actually be perfect.

I was thinking building something like this (excuse my horrible drawing)

I was also thinking, I could set it on a picnic table instead of having it have legs. Then attach holding handles on the side of the box portion.

Would likely make it easier to take apart.

BrendenF10 said:

Exactly. The problem I keep running into is space. That growtent is HUGE. It would take up most of my living room. I am thinking an 8 foot by 4 foot table design would actually be perfect.

I was thinking building something like this (excuse my horrible drawing)

I was also thinking, I could set it on a picnic table instead of having it have legs. Then attach holding handles on the side of the box portion.

Would likely make it easier to take apart.

Click to expand...

Make the sides big enough so that you can completely hide your heating/lighting fixtures inside the enclosure, thereby creating a closed chamber. Anything 24 inches and above would be fine because that will allow you enough ceiling room to keep the fixtures far from the substrate which some at least be 4+ inches deep. That'll make the enclosure neater and nicer looking in the long room.

You can either make a wood/plastic/glass top with swing out/swing down plastic doors. Or a enclosed top with hinges to open. Those are usually the best options to keep temperature and humidity from escaping.

Okay how about getting a second hand dining room table as your base to limit the build even more. Especially the kind with screw in legs. BTW like the folding leg design

Blackdog1714 said:

Okay how about getting a second hand dining room table as your base to limit the build even more. Especially the kind with screw in legs. BTW like the folding leg design

Click to expand...

Those types of enclosures, the ones where owners would build a tortoise enclosure with the goal of turning it into a household furniture type item, used to be more popular a while back. I remember seeing long cabinets, dining tables, long coffee tables and other examples before as well. I miss seeing those creations.

Minority2 said:

Those types of enclosures, the ones where owners would build a tortoise enclosure with the goal of turning it into a household furniture type item, used to be more popular a while back. I remember seeing long cabinets, dining tables, long coffee tables and other examples before as well. I miss seeing those creations.

Click to expand...

I feel like that would be really cool tbh. Taking some old furniture from like a Goodwill or something and repurposing it.

Minority2 said:

Make the sides big enough so that you can completely hide your heating/lighting fixtures inside the enclosure, thereby creating a closed chamber. Anything 24 inches and above would be fine because that will allow you enough ceiling room to keep the fixtures far from the substrate which some at least be 4+ inches deep. That'll make the enclosure neater and nicer looking in the long room.

You can either make a wood/plastic/glass top with swing out/swing down plastic doors. Or a enclosed top with hinges to open. Those are usually the best options to keep temperature and humidity from escaping.

Click to expand...

This is solid advice.

I have never built anything like this before, but I feel like it's doable. I feel like I can do it.

Minority2 said:

It sounds like your tortoise is still not living the best life it could live under these conditions. You can definitely improve a lot of things besides the obvious, being the diet.

Read this guide and follow the guidelines listed:
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-best-way-to-raise-any-temperate-species-of-tortoise.183131/



An adult Russian tortoise or any small species of tortoises requires a minimum of a 8ft x 4ft sized enclosure. Tortoises require a large space to exercise, explore, and thermoregulate. In a small enclosure the tortoise is forced to always stay by or directly near the basking bulb. In a large enclosure a tortoise will have more options and locations to receive their heating and cooling needs from.

Tortoises do not belong on the floor of anyone's home. They need their own dedicated space away from other animals and possible predators.

The cheapest way to obtain an 8ft x 4ft enclosure is to build one yourself. That would be the cheapest option. Other indoor options include:
1. 8ft length grow tents on amazon for around $150-200.
2. Expensive stock tanks.
3. High-end pre-made plastic reptile enclosures.

Click to expand...

We use a repurposed bookcase that is 5.5 feet long and 3 feet wide. We bought it at the thrift store for about $15 and modified it by adding a frame for a lid and creating a solid back.

(And, for those who will say that space is still too small, We are lucky in that we are able to take Scooter outside every day to let him explore our big back yard (supervised!!!) and spend time in his new still-being-built outdoor space (a repurposed boxed in, multi-level flowerbed.)

VJRDuran said:

We use a repurposed bookcase that is 5.5 feet long and 3 feet wide. We bought it at the thrift store for about $15 and modified it by adding a frame for a lid and creating a solid back.

(And, for those who will say that space is still too small, We are lucky in that we are able to take Scooter outside every day to let him explore our big back yard (supervised!!!) and spend time in his new still-being-built outdoor space (a repurposed boxed in, multi-level flowerbed.)

Click to expand...

Why did you quote me?