New/Unexpected Desert Tort Dad

MoreCowbellAz

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Hello - I apologize in advance, I'm a bit frantic tying to pull the "new dad" thing together on the fly, and I'm looking for any help and advice I can get. I'm in Phoenix, and 4 days ago I unexpectedly found a very young (shell size of about 1.5 in) desert tort wandering around a small retention area in our subdivision. I didn't have the heart to walk away because no way would he survive there. Anyway, I took him home to keep him safe while I began my mad scramble to make sure first and foremost he was hydrated and fed, and second figure out what to do next in terms of homing him. I'm a huge animal lover and want to make sure he's ok, whatever I do.

He seems healthy and active. I've been researching and reading like mad to educate myself how best to care for him, even if were to be temporary.

Ok, scrambling I made a nice little temp indoor home for him with natural desert substrate including places to hide, using a 2'x3' container indoors. Gets plenty of sun yet also had shady spots if he gets hot. He likes to sleep under a little roof I made him. He's been drinking and I also soaked him. For food, I'm still figuring out what he likes to eat, but spur of the moment I gave him some romaine lettuce which loves but I understand now that's not the best, so now I'm giving him an assortment of hibiscus leaves and flowers, rose petals, and some grasses I had in the yard (no pesticides). I'll be getting some dandelions and alfalfa in the mix tonight. So while I'm still learning and experimenting with his diet, I think his emergency needs are covered. He seems active and alert and not at all shy.

Now I'm thinking about hibernation, and I've read some of the posts on this site that were very helpful. But it's Sept 19 and I'm scrambling trying to figure out if/when/how I do this specifically for my location . I'm already attached to the little guy and even so I don't want to re-home him right on the cusp of hibernation, I'm still trying to get him "stabilized" from the trauma of his new home as it is. Sending him to another new home or into the wild right on the cusp of hibernation, not knowing what he's been trough already, just seems wrong to me. So I'm thinking the best course is indoor hibernating, getting a small fridge, etc. Been reading up on that and I'm not worried about the investment. But it means I'll be keeping him for awhile :) BTW outdoor hibernating in not an option right now, I may be moving mid-stream.

I have to say the whole hibernation fridge thing freaks me out, I'm scared for him, and all the more scared because as I said I'm trying to educate myself on all his QUICKLY before I run out of time and mess something up. Not exactly sure when and how to get him ready, especially since I'm just now making sure he's well fed and hydrated and healthy to start with.

Advice is welcome, and here's what I'm thinking so far: small fridge and thermometer, 12x12 inch ventilated box with a couple inches of substrate, open fridge door every couple days for air. Set temp to 50-55 degrees, check on him weekly, hibernate for 6-8 weeks. Does that sound about right?

I'm most unsure what to do to get him ready and exactly when does he transition from his regular "home" into the fridge? It's still very warm here, high '90's day and around 70 at night. And how do I know when to bring him out? I'm trying to get my head around putting the little guy in a fridge to begin with, and I shudder to think what if he's not ready, or at the end if he's ready to come out and he's stuck in there trapped. Freaks me out! I've read 8 weeks on some websites, and 12 on others. That's a big difference.

I'm hoping I have at least a couple weeks before I need to do anything other than get him acclimated/nourished, that way I can educate myself and prepare in advance in the meantime.

Sorry for the long post, I welcome your (friendly) advice. Like I said I'm scrambling. I'll keep researching in the meantime.
 

HoosierTort

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Is that even legal in Arizona? I thought they were protected? Either way, you should put it back and stop trying to “stabilize” it in an environment it doesn’t need to be.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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HoosierTort is right. The Desert Tortoise is a protected species in Arizona and it is illegal to take it from the wild. I know you're just trying to help, but you will ultimately do more harm than good to the conservation efforts of this species, which is why these laws are in place. I recommend that you return it where you found it, or you can call AZ Game & Fish and let them deal with it.

If you really want a Desert Tortoise, Game & Fish has some that are in need of homes, so there is no need to take wild ones from their natural environment. You can get one through proper and legal channels.
 

Tom

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Whoa whoa whoa... I don't care what words are written by bureaucrat politicians in some far off official building. That should not stop anyone from doing the right thing. If I see a baby tortoise in a dangerous area and in need of help, I'm going to help it. To hell with their stupid laws and their ignorance. I'm not going to leave an animal to die because they said so. This guy didn't go out in the desert looking for a tortoise baby to poach. He found it in his neighborhood, where it would surely be killed by any number of sad fates. Dogs, car tires, lawn chemicals, birds, open storm drains, etc... A good deed has been done here.

@MoreCowbellAz Our first step is to ID your baby. Can you post pics? Especially show us the front legs and top of the carapace. Chances are good that this is a sulcata, and not a DT at all. They look very similar as babies, but require different care. Once we know for sure what you've got, we can help you with care info.

Given your circumstances, I would not hibernate this baby this year. Its fine to keep them up. And if you have a sulcata, as I suspect, the cold temps would likely make it sick and kill it, as they do not hibernate.

And thank you for going way out of your way to help an animal in need.
 

Blackdog1714

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Tom is right! Not interfering with nature in nature is one thing, but HELPING nature when it had a bad interaction with HUMANITY ---IS AN ANGELIC ACT. Firstly, health assessment is a priority (worms, dehydration, malnutrition, deisease), care setup- seperate from human contact to maintain a wild feel, and a detailed writtne history of care given, weights, foods, interactions times... ETC. By doing this you are ensuring that a healthy animal with a excellent chance for survival is being reintroduced. JUST taking a sick animal and putting them back where you found them is almost as bad euthanizing them. Sorry if I hurt feelings
 

MoreCowbellAz

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Thanks for the replies. To be clear, here in Az you can't take torts from the wild, but you can have them through the normal channels (including private gift), one per member of the household. But this was NOT in the wild, it was in a small retention basin in the middle of subdivision in the middle of a busy city. No way do I see the little guy surviving there for all the reasons mentioned above, including landscapers and mowers. May as well have been left in a parking lot. I'm not running afoul of any laws, not that I would really care if I was giving the little guy a death sentence otherwise. Nor am trying to save nature from itself, I'm just trying to do the right thing and correct a man-made wrong.

FWIW, I'm a big supporter and believer that critters should be in their natural habitat whenever possible rather than forced into a "humanized" life or being cooped up or confined in too small of spaces. I'm very conscience of that I respect mother nature very much. That goes for all animals. Shoot, I don't even like making cats and dogs do all the silly things people make them do, lol. Sure I've spoiled mine with love and attention and the best of care, but no silly stuff. LOL

Anyway, I'm looking at Az Game & Fish and some other sanctuary groups and considering all options, but I'm also finding Az GAF already has MANY torts they're trying to adopt out, there's a backlog. If they can't re-home him, makes no sense to me to go that route. Maybe a relocation program, IDK, but I first wanted to get him stable and strong before putting him any kind of additional jeopardy. Plus I'm kind of confused that if AzGAF were going to relocate them to the wild, why are the trying to adopt them out? I read one article that said many were some kind of hybrids and shouldn't be introduced into non-hybrid populations. Don't know how accurate that is however. Anyway I haven't ruled any of those options out I'm just trying to choose the best one, and I can't do that without at least SOME time to research and educate myself. Soooo much conficting info out there, it's over-whelming.

Also BTW, please understand I'm VERY torn on all this, and I'm so worried I'm doing all the wrong things by even trying to help. I may well be over-thinking everything and being led astray by best intentions. I'd be mortified to find I zigged when I should've zagged and somehow harmed the little guy. So yeah, this is a bit stressful.

I do have pics and will try to figure out how to post them here. If anyone can help point me in the right direction I'd appreciate it, in the meantime I'll poke around here shortly and try to figure it out. I've looked around and to me he really looks like a DT, but I'm certainly no expert. I'd LOVE to have someone tell me for sure what his species is. As I said above, I'm scrambling and very overwhelmed, first priority was proper safety, food, water, and light, which I think I've accomplished. Now I'm looking a little further out.
 

Tom

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That's why I also recommended letting Game & Fish take it. If the tortoise needs medical care, let them take care of it and they can reintroduce it into the wild.
Those people don't know their a$$es from a hole in the ground. Want an animal to die a slow painful death while its needs are not met? Give it to the government.

My apologies to the few .gov types that are doing good work and do have a clue, but I've run into far too many who have no clue.
 

Tom

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Sorry for the fuzziness of the last pic, it's a pic of a video if him eating a hibiscus leaf.
You do indeed have a desert tortoise. Cool! Here is the care info for them. Its titled for Russian tortoises, but care is the same. Most of the care info you find for DTs will result in their death. Soak that baby daily and keep it indoors most of every day until it gets bigger. They do NOT do better outside as babies. Adults do better outside, but not babies. I would not hibernate it this year.
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/
https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/

All your questions are welcome. We are here to talk torts.
 

HoosierTort

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Those people don't know their a$$es from a hole in the ground. Want an animal to die a slow painful death while its needs are not met? Give it to the government.

My apologies to the few .gov types that are doing good work and do have a clue, but I've run into far too many who have no clue.

Haha...true!
I’d trust your opinion, Tom, on if it’s a sulcata or DT, as you’d know better. Doesn’t look like a sulcata to me, but I don’t raise them.
 

HoosierTort

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And my comment wasn’t meant to sound like you didn’t care. It’s just the majority of people do this kinda thing and the tort is dead in a month from their “help”.
Your situation is odd to say the least. Not sure how a hatchling DT made it to the spot you found him? Unless Tom says it’s a Sulcata or something which would explain its location? Might check if anyone in your area has either and see if it might have come from an unknown nest?
Either way, glad he isn’t in the middle of the drainage/retention pond!!
 

HoosierTort

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Well that’s cool. Here is the number you’re supposed to call.

“If you determine that the animal you found is wild, within 24 hrs. return it to a safe location close to where you found it. If it has been removed for a longer period of time, you must contact the local Game & Fish office (628-5376). “
 

Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome!

Chances are good that a bird (raven, crow) dropped the baby in the area where you found it. Ravens are the number one killer of baby tortoises in the wild.

Because I try to be strictly legal in my dealings with turtles and tortoises (I used to be a rescue), I would call the number given by HoosierTort and explain that you found the baby where you did, in the middle of a busy city, and ask if it would be ok for you to keep it. Be sure to explain that there IS NOT a population of desert tortoises in that retention area and it cannot be put back where you found it.

The baby looks terribly dry. Please be sure to soak it daily, and keep it in an enclosure with moist substrate. Also, please keep us informed as to the outcome.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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Hi, and welcome!

Chances are good that a bird (raven, crow) dropped the baby in the area where you found it. Ravens are the number one killer of baby tortoises in the wild.

Because I try to be strictly legal in my dealings with turtles and tortoises (I used to be a rescue), I would call the number given by HoosierTort and explain that you found the baby where you did, in the middle of a busy city, and ask if it would be ok for you to keep it. Be sure to explain that there IS NOT a population of desert tortoises in that retention area and it cannot be put back where you found it.

The baby looks terribly dry. Please be sure to soak it daily, and keep it in an enclosure with moist substrate. Also, please keep us informed as to the outcome.
My thoughts exactly and I agree completely. I know some laws might be seen by some as needless and a pain, but they are still laws and I'm only trying to help someone do things legally to stay out of any trouble.
 

MoreCowbellAz

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Yes I put up some fliers at the mail boxes with the first pic above, that if anyone has adults where this little guy would've come from please let me know.

Hey Tom - Thanks for the links, I'd already read the beginner mistakes one, hadn't read the second one since it had to do with Russians. If you're saying most of that would apply to DT, I'll give it a good reading.

Can you guys/gals give me a quick compass on a couple things. I know there may be varying opinions, which is fine since I'm learning, I just want to be in the ballpark so I don't do anything wildly wrong.

Here goes:
- I have an outdoor sunny spot where I sit with him where he gets direct sun, safe and guarded of course. I'm still developing a routing but figure a few hours on the weekends, plus some morning time. I went ahead and got a 5.5in light housing with a 13w UVB light (about 12-15 inches high on one side of his enclosure) to give him some extra UV. Large enough? Unsure if I should I do 3-4 hrs a day or just leave it one normal daylight hours and turn it off at night? He'll get some sun outdoors but not like hours a day.
- I've been soaking him 15-20 mins every couple days so far, with a shallow tray of water when I leave for work (a tupperware lid). Usually he drinks when I soak him, sometimes not.
- So Tom is recommending no hibernating this year, I'll have to learn what that entails, I'm sure there are posts here about that but if anyone has the reader's digest version in the meantime I'm all ears. I was otherwise thinking about doing the indoor hibernating w/ fridge this year as opposed to outdoors because I'm not sure if I'm moving and I wouldn't want to disturb him too much outside. Like I said earlier, I'm really trying hard to get my head around that to begin with.
- This weekend I'm going to fabricate a larger indoor enclosure for him, right now his is 24x24 inches, best I could create spur of the moment. What's in it is good, but I'm guessing a bit bigger is better even though he's small. Open top is fine, I have no other animals indoors that can get in with him.
- He sleeps alot, wakes up right around 6:30-7am and is active when he's awake. He's usually out by sundown. Sleepin' fool.
- His food goes on a flat rock, so it doesn't get commingled with other debris. I started putting some calcium carbonate on it this morning, haven't figured out how much I should use.

Thanks everyone
 

MoreCowbellAz

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BTW I will increase the soaking as suggested. I wish I could soak him when I get home from work, problem is he's always asleep by the time I get home around 6:30 so I'm stuck with trying to do it in the mornings when he's awake! I figured in the evenings I should let him sleep if he wants to sleep, but maybe I'm wrong? He'll get lots of sun and soaking tomorrow for sure (Saturday).
 

Tom

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Yes I put up some fliers at the mail boxes with the first pic above, that if anyone has adults where this little guy would've come from please let me know.

Hey Tom - Thanks for the links, I'd already read the beginner mistakes one, hadn't read the second one since it had to do with Russians. If you're saying most of that would apply to DT, I'll give it a good reading.

Can you guys/gals give me a quick compass on a couple things. I know there may be varying opinions, which is fine since I'm learning, I just want to be in the ballpark so I don't do anything wildly wrong.

Here goes:
- I have an outdoor sunny spot where I sit with him where he gets direct sun, safe and guarded of course. I'm still developing a routing but figure a few hours on the weekends, plus some morning time. I went ahead and got a 5.5in light housing with a 13w UVB light (about 12-15 inches high on one side of his enclosure) to give him some extra UV. Large enough? Unsure if I should I do 3-4 hrs a day or just leave it one normal daylight hours and turn it off at night? He'll get some sun outdoors but not like hours a day.
- I've been soaking him 15-20 mins every couple days so far, with a shallow tray of water when I leave for work (a tupperware lid). Usually he drinks when I soak him, sometimes not.
- So Tom is recommending no hibernating this year, I'll have to learn what that entails, I'm sure there are posts here about that but if anyone has the reader's digest version in the meantime I'm all ears. I was otherwise thinking about doing the indoor hibernating w/ fridge this year as opposed to outdoors because I'm not sure if I'm moving and I wouldn't want to disturb him too much outside. Like I said earlier, I'm really trying hard to get my head around that to begin with.
- This weekend I'm going to fabricate a larger indoor enclosure for him, right now his is 24x24 inches, best I could create spur of the moment. What's in it is good, but I'm guessing a bit bigger is better even though he's small. Open top is fine, I have no other animals indoors that can get in with him.
- He sleeps alot, wakes up right around 6:30-7am and is active when he's awake. He's usually out by sundown. Sleepin' fool.
- His food goes on a flat rock, so it doesn't get commingled with other debris. I started putting some calcium carbonate on it this morning, haven't figured out how much I should use.

Thanks everyone


Turn off that bulb ASAP. That is exactly the bulb we are talking about in the beginners mistakes thread you read. No cfl bulbs.

A half hour twice a week is plenty of sun for D3 synthesis. A few hours a week is fine too.

Use a tall sided opaque tub for soaking. Get the water level about half way up the shell. Soak for 30-40 minutes. Keep the water warm through the whole soak.

If you decide to not hibernate him, all you do is leave the lights on timers and keep him warm.

Use a terra cotta saucer sunk into the substrate for food and use another for water. Use the flat rock for under the basking lamp.

I like to set my lights on timers to accommodate my schedule. If you get home at 6:30pm, set your timer from 8am -8pm.

Here is the lighting rundown. You might only need number one, depending on your enclosure and home.
There are four elements to heating and lighting:
  1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt floods from the hardware store. I run them on a timer for 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. You can mount a fixture on the ceiling, or hang a dome lamp from the ceiling. Go lower or higher wattage if this makes the enclosure too hot or not warm enough. Do not use "spot" bulbs, mercury vapor bulbs or halogen bulbs.
  2. Ambient heat maintenance. Unless your house gets unusually cold at night, you can skip this step for a DT. Night lows above 60 require no night heat for DT species.
  3. Light. I use florescent tubes for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most tubes at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. I've been using LEDs lately and they are great, and run cooler than a florescent. This can be set on the same timer as the basking bulb. If your tortoises room is already adequately lit, you don't need this one either.
  4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside in a safe secure enclosure for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. It helps to have a UV meter to test and see what your bulb is actually putting out at your mounting height. Plexi-glass or screen tops will filter out some or all of the UV produced by your bulb.
 
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