Outside time yielding slower growth for my redfoot

I weigh my redfoot at the beginning of every week after soaking and feeding (and pooping) for consistency; his growth is relatively constant and consistent.

From last week to this week he gained about half as much weight as I would have predicted... 5g as opposed to 10-15.



He seems healthy and active, so I have a theory...

He spent a lot of time in his outside enclosure last week and I think a combination of lower humidity, more exploring, and less nutritionally dense food led to the slower weight gain.



In his indoors enclosure life, he eats fruits and veggies and mazuri and protein, the temperature is in the 80s to 80s and the humidity is in the 90s.

In his outdoors enclosure life, he eats whatever grass and weeds he comes across, the temperature was in the 80s and the humidity was in the 30-40% range; he spent all the time I was watching him roaming around the enclosure.

These all seem like good reasons for his weight gain to be less than normal, but my assumption is that the gains from getting outside outweigh the slowdown.

My questions to the TFO braintrust:

1) should I limit Darwin's time outside to protect him from dehydration?

2) should I adjust the outside enclosure environment to bring it closer to the inside environment?

3) should I simply keep doing what I've been doing and not worry about it?

Thanks,

Jamie

He's inside today as it's cold and rainy in NH.

J

I believe @Tom has said something about putting babies outside at a young age. I know he doesn't keep the RF tortoise, but it's probably the same for all tortoises.

Most all of my tortoises experience a period of slower growth when moved outside. I believe there are a few things going on.

Tortoises a very much creatures of habit and routine. They have very good memories and that serves them to develop patterns of knowing exactly where the water is, the favorite food plants grow, the best hides are, etc, etc. We often label them as wanderers, but they have a definite routine and pattern to their activity in a developed territory. Change is not good for this. We plop them in a new territory, and they have to adjust and relearn and adapt to a new area.

Somehow it has become a standard to believe sunlight is such a good thing for tortoises. I believe tortoises spend most of their lives hiding from direct sunlight. Direct sunlight is one of their biggest enemies! The first few years of life, sunlight is quite detrimental to the proper development of a young tortoise. My belief is that a young tortoise is not well enough developed to be exposed to direct sunlight very much at all. It must find a way to stay protected and avoid desiccation. Just because it looks like a miniature of the adult more so than most animals, does not mean it is as hardy and robust and as developed as the adult. It is a baby and needs to be protected. Until the bone ossifies and shell becomes more developed and the growth of the new organs gets them functioning efficiently, it must find cover and protection. The tortoise may have evolved without parental care as the routine for a baby, but that has been replaced with babies knowing instinctively they must find protection themselves or die.

Provide lots of humid, natural hides for your tortoise outdoors. I like natural plant hides. Part of the battle we have and don't seem to relate to is that the ground temperature is the friend of tortoises. It provides a natural heat sink that moderates all extremes. But in our different parts of the world the ground temps are very different. Most tortoises we have come from areas where the ground temperature is much warmer than here. So when they follow their instincts to push into a crevice or dark corner, the don't know that it is so much cooler here. Their body temperatures cool and their metabolism slows. In their native areas, the gound temps would be much closer to an ideal body temperature for them. Not the case where most of us are now. Especially in spring when ground temps are rising from the winter cold. Also Ground temperatures in hiding spots lag a few hours behind daily air temperatures. So when putting a tortoise out in the morning or early afternoon, I keep that in mind.

I like to look at my enclosure - outside or inside - and think to myself - "is that a place my tortoise would naturally seek out to stay in the wild, or a place it would avoid?" Most enclosure I see are way too barren.

Just some thoughts for consideration...

Outside time slows them down. Way down. A few years back I did an experiment with 12 sulcata clutch mates. 6 lived mostly indoors in a humid closed chamber, with daily one hour sunning sessions. The other 6 lived outside in a heavily planted 4x8' enclosure that was kept damp and humid. They spent as much as 10 hours a day outside, weather permitting. Both groups slept in humid chambers indoors and were fed the same foods from the same bucket in the same quantities, but the outdoor ones could actually graze freely in addition to their daily ration. We are talking about a difference of 4-9 hours a day of inside vs. outside time. The INDOOR ones grew at about 1/2 to 1/3 as fast as their indoor siblings. When the largest outdoor ones were just reaching 100 grams after a few months, their indoor clutch mates were topping 300 grams. Both groups were soaked daily, and both groups slept in the same warm humid indoor chambers.

Climate, temperatures, diet, and enclosure size don't seem to matter. I don't have an explanation for why this is. Activity levels seemed similar. If anything, the indoor ones were more active presumably because they felt more secure. Temperatures were similar indoors and out, with outdoors having a larger range with cooler mornings and hotter mid day temps than indoors which was more steady. Humidity at tortoise level under the canopy on the damp earth was usually in the 60-70s, and in the 80s or 90s when I was sprinkling hourly on a hot summer day.

I was surprised to see such a drastic difference because of a few hours of sunshine, but there it was. Outdoor ones also showed some mild pyramiding. Indoor group showed none.

Thanks!

J

I noticed the exact opposite with Murphy this past last year. His growth was much slower over the winter when he was in his indoor enclosure than it was last summer when he was outside.

Toddrickfl1 said:

I noticed the exact opposite with Murphy this past last year. His growth was much slower over the winter when he was in his indoor enclosure than it was last summer when he was outside.

Click to expand...

Interesting... I wonder if that has anything to do with the climate in Georgia versus New Hampshire (ie consistently higher temp and humidity).

J

jsheffield said:

Interesting... I wonder if that has anything to do with the climate in Georgia versus New Hampshire (ie consistently higher temp and humidity).

J

Click to expand...

What I can say is I did notice him slow down considerably when winter first started. He became way less active and was eating less. Just seemed way less interested in anything. I got really worried at first but I did read that the Brazilians or Cherry heads sometimes go thru a slow down in the colder months. That's what I attributed it too. I didn't think he was a Cherry head but he did start Marbling. He's been back outside a few weeks now so I'll see if the trend continues this year.

Tom said:

Outside time slows them down. Way down. A few years back I did an experiment with 12 sulcata clutch mates. 6 lived mostly indoors in a humid closed chamber, with daily one hour sunning sessions. The other 6 lived outside in a heavily planted 4x8' enclosure that was kept damp and humid. They spent as much as 10 hours a day outside, weather permitting. Both groups slept in humid chambers indoors and were fed the same foods from the same bucket in the same quantities, but the outdoor ones could actually graze freely in addition to their daily ration. We are talking about a difference of 4-9 hours a day of inside vs. outside time. The outdoor ones grew at about 1/2 to 1/3 as fast as their indoor siblings. When the largest outdoor ones were just reaching 100 grams after a few months, their indoor clutch mates were topping 300 grams. Both groups were soaked daily, and both groups slept in the same warm humid indoor chambers.

Climate, temperatures, diet, and enclosure size don't seem to matter. I don't have an explanation for why this is. Activity levels seemed similar. If anything, the indoor ones were more active presumably because they felt more secure. Temperatures were similar indoors and out, with outdoors having a larger range with cooler mornings and hotter mid day temps than indoors which was more steady. Humidity at tortoise level under the canopy on the damp earth was usually in the 60-70s, and in the 80s or 90s when I was sprinkling hourly on a hot summer day.

I was surprised to see such a drastic difference because of a few hours of sunshine, but there it was. Outdoor ones also showed some mild pyramiding. Indoor group showed none.

Click to expand...

@Tom I think there may be a mistake here. You said the OUTDOOR ones grew faster, but then you said the weight of the INDOOR ones was 300 grams to the OUTDOOR's 100 grams.

???

Yvonne G said:

@Tom I think there may be a mistake here. You said the OUTDOOR ones grew faster, but then you said the weight of the INDOOR ones was 300 grams to the OUTDOOR's 100 grams.

???

Click to expand...

Noticed that too! Maybe the outdoor ones are just bigger but lighter from all that exercise?

jsheffield said:

I weigh my redfoot at the beginning of every week after soaking and feeding (and pooping) for consistency; his growth is relatively constant and consistent.

From last week to this week he gained about half as much weight as I would have predicted... 5g as opposed to 10-15.

View attachment 273257

He seems healthy and active, so I have a theory...

He spent a lot of time in his outside enclosure last week and I think a combination of lower humidity, more exploring, and less nutritionally dense food led to the slower weight gain.

View attachment 273258

In his indoors enclosure life, he eats fruits and veggies and mazuri and protein, the temperature is in the 80s to 80s and the humidity is in the 90s.

In his outdoors enclosure life, he eats whatever grass and weeds he comes across, the temperature was in the 80s and the humidity was in the 30-40% range; he spent all the time I was watching him roaming around the enclosure.

These all seem like good reasons for his weight gain to be less than normal, but my assumption is that the gains from getting outside outweigh the slowdown.

My questions to the TFO braintrust:

1) should I limit Darwin's time outside to protect him from dehydration?

2) should I adjust the outside enclosure environment to bring it closer to the inside environment?

3) should I simply keep doing what I've been doing and not worry about it?

Thanks,

Jamie

Click to expand...

Maybe he needs more shade generally in this outside enclosure. It may be too hot inside the hide. I would cover half of this enclosure with a sheet of plywood. Just my opinion...plus I would cover the whole enclosure with some chicken wire to protect him from possible invaders...

Yvonne G said:

@Tom I think there may be a mistake here. You said the OUTDOOR ones grew faster, but then you said the weight of the INDOOR ones was 300 grams to the OUTDOOR's 100 grams.

???

Click to expand...

I re-read it and I don't see it. Did you already fix it for me? If yes, thank you! The indoor babies grew MUCH faster than the outdoor babies on the same food, same hydration routine, and similar temperatures.

"I was surprised to see such a drastic difference because of a few hours of sunshine, but there it was. Outdoor ones also showed some mild pyramiding. Indoor group showed none."

Tom, I'm surprised to read that the outdoor tortoises showed pyramiding. I raised my DT primarily outside, and I have always credited the beautiful, smooth shell to that fact.

Lemonade said:

"I was surprised to see such a drastic difference because of a few hours of sunshine, but there it was. Outdoor ones also showed some mild pyramiding. Indoor group showed none."

Tom, I'm surprised to read that the outdoor tortoises showed pyramiding. I raised my DT primarily outside, and I have always credited the beautiful, smooth shell to that fact.

Click to expand...

I'm certain it had to do with the ambient humidity... I can maintain 80-100 percent in Darwin's enclosure, but NH outdoors in May is around 30-40 percent.

Jamie

jsheffield said:

I'm certain it had to do with the ambient humidity... I can maintain 80-100 percent in Darwin's enclosure, but NH outdoors in May is around 30-40 percent.

Jamie

Click to expand...

But Tom is in Southern California as am I.

Lemonade said:

But Tom is in Southern California as am I.

Click to expand...

I bet it's still less humid and warm outside on average, over time, than in an closed system setup, and I bet that makes some difference.

J

Lemonade said:

"I was surprised to see such a drastic difference because of a few hours of sunshine, but there it was. Outdoor ones also showed some mild pyramiding. Indoor group showed none."

Tom, I'm surprised to read that the outdoor tortoises showed pyramiding. I raised my DT primarily outside, and I have always credited the beautiful, smooth shell to that fact.

Click to expand...

DT don't pyramid as easily as sulcatas, RFs, etc.

My redfoot spent time outside everyday this last week and gained a good amount of weight... I think the difference was that I made sure to soak down the outside enclosure liberally before putting him outside and a couple of times while he was out there.

Jamie