Indian stars stunted growth?

Eredant

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I acquired 5 indian star tortoises which were hatched in captivity in 2018, but recently they appear to have stopped growing. I used to feed mostly greens, but after they stopped growing I started feeding them Mazuri about twice a week.

Their lighting is T5 UVB lamps, with a ceramic lamp for heating (27-34°C). They regularly bask below the ceramic lamp. The humidity varies from 65-85%. They poop regularly, typically when I bathe them.

I'm starting to suspect that it might be parasites? I contacted a local vet regarding a fecal exam but I haven't heard back yet.

Any advice?
 

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Markw84

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A picture of your enclosure would be needed to make any meaningful suggestions. I suspect they are being kept too dry and with minimal natural cover as the likely problem. What is the coolest part of the enclosure, temperature-wise?

Since they are all shown some consistent growth and the smallest at about 65g, it seems they are all metabolically functioning. They thrive in very warm and humid environmants with plenty of plant cover to hide beneath. Without good cover, they are constantly under a low-grade stress that will take its toll.

Please post pictures of the enclosure, it's various temps - ambient day and night, basking hot temp, and coldest temp in enclosure. Types of lights and photoperiod used. A bit more detail on diet - types of greens and variety.
 

Eredant

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Dear @Markw84 thank you for your reply!

I've attached a picture of the current enclose (with the large water bowl; which was added this week) and the enclosure when I originally set it up. Back then I got the feedback that there were too many hazards for tipping over. Gradually I've removed things to give them more space, but that may have been the wrong idea.

I've attached the temperate/humidity log for the last month. Right now the coldest point is about 25°C or 77°F, they tend to dig in the soil where it is about 30°C or 86°F.

With regards to the food, in the winter mostly a mix of endive, chicory, normal lettuce bought from the supermarket. Things that grow in the garden dandelion, thistle, clover, grass in spring-fall. As I said I also feed mazuri/nutrazu and reptilix-tortoise. Recently I bought Wiesen Cobs dried hay pellets, which were advised by the person I bought my aldabras from. As I understood it both species should have similar diets that are high in grasses, right?
 

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Markw84

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You have not mentioned what you are using for all your heating and lighting and what photoperiod. There is a good chance that some of the issue is the shorter daylight hours in winter. It seems the growth curves all do slow down about 150 days ago. Since your chart does not show actual dates, I am assuming they go up to a fairly current timeframe. So the slowdown could be very well started by the short days of late fall. I cannot see how your enclosure is set up - any amibient room light from windows nearby, and where the lights are in relation to the top of the enclosure and what type of top. To keep good growth and activity, I like a photoperiod of 14 hours of bright lights, assuming there are also good hides for "shaded" retreat.

I personally feel they do much better with plenty of plant hides. Your first picture was too cluttered with that big log, but I like the 3 plants that were in there. Getting rid of the log and keeping and perhaps adding a few more plants would be a great addition. Without seeing your lighting, its hard to comment on how plants will do in your enclosure, but your tortoises will love them if there are plenty of hanging fronds they can hide beneath.

I feel they do best with a cool down to perhaps a min of 30° at night at the lowest. As you are seeing, there preference is to dig down and rest at a spot with that temp now. Daytime temps I like to creep up to 35°-36° for ambient. I always keep humidity in the 90% range.

Very young tortoises spend almost all their time hiding. They seek out spots of very high (virtually 100%) humidity and love and optimal temperature in the 32°-36° range. It is difficult to ever see a young tortoise in the wild as they are always hiding. They come out in very brief, optimal times to eat. They often will pick spots amongst the plants even while eating to remain hidden. At tortoise in the open is a stressed tortoise when young.
 

Markw84

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Here's a picture of one of my enclosures I am using for my newly hatched Burmese stars to give you and idea... The temp is 35°. The humidity is 97%. The lights are on for 15 hours. Bright LED bulbs and LED grow lights for ambient on 14 hours. A 65 watt incadescent flood bulb on 15 hours for a basking area. A 34" T5 12% UVB tube for UVB on 6 hours midday. A 100 watt CHE on thermostat to maintain a minimum of 31° overnight...

IMG_0698.jpg
 

Eredant

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Hey @Markw84 for lighting I have 2xT5 lamps which are on a 14h timer.
- Philips Master TL5 HO - 39W/865 - Daylight
- Arcadia T5 D3 Desert - 39 Watt (12% UVB)
Is it possible that 14h of UVB is too much? Any particular reason why you choose to only use those for 6h a day, or is this to extend their useful life?

Their growth slowed when I moved them from the living room to a different room without windows about 5 months ago (end of october). This also coincided with me replacing my Solar Glo (MVB)/T8 combination with the T5/CHEs lights.

I'll definitely add some additional plants! We'll see how they do with the T5 lights.

Thanks a lot for your personalized advice!
 

Markw84

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Hey @Markw84 for lighting I have 2xT5 lamps which are on a 14h timer.
- Philips Master TL5 HO - 39W/865 - Daylight
- Arcadia T5 D3 Desert - 39 Watt (12% UVB)
Is it possible that 14h of UVB is too much? Any particular reason why you choose to only use those for 6h a day, or is this to extend their useful life?

Their growth slowed when I moved them from the living room to a different room without windows about 5 months ago (end of october). This also coincided with me replacing my Solar Glo (MVB)/T8 combination with the T5/CHEs lights.

I'll definitely add some additional plants! We'll see how they do with the T5 lights.

Thanks a lot for your personalized advice!

I only have the UVB 6 hours for a few reasons. None of them vitally important, but it is how I've ended up with my setup:
It does extend the life of the bulb by over 2x
The T5 tubes run hotter than other fluorescents and heat the enclosure more when on. This creates a midday rise in temps to the low 90°'s and cooler morning and evening.
Likewise this creates a "natural" spike in midday UVB as would occur with that higher midday sun.
I have quite bright 5000k - 6000K ambient light in my enclosures without the UVB. So there is good ambient and the UVB is not needed for that.

I think your tortoises will like the added plants and security. Stars also seem to like warmer temps. Perhaps bump the ambient temp to 33°C daytime and keep it above 30° nighttime. Hopefully the plants will also bump the humidity for you as well.
 

PA2019

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I only have the UVB 6 hours for a few reasons. None of them vitally important, but it is how I've ended up with my setup:
It does extend the life of the bulb by over 2x
The T5 tubes run hotter than other fluorescents and heat the enclosure more when on. This creates a midday rise in temps to the low 90°'s and cooler morning and evening.
Likewise this creates a "natural" spike in midday UVB as would occur with that higher midday sun.
I have quite bright 5000k - 6000K ambient light in my enclosures without the UVB. So there is good ambient and the UVB is not needed for that.

I think your tortoises will like the added plants and security. Stars also seem to like warmer temps. Perhaps bump the ambient temp to 33°C daytime and keep it above 30° nighttime. Hopefully the plants will also bump the humidity for you as well.

Mark, I have a question regarding your ambient lighting. Do you use plant grow lights strictly for the plants, or do you find there is a direct benefit to the tortoises by expanding the light index they are exposed to in the enclosure? I ask because I am running 6,500K LED lights, a 48" UVB that comes on from 12-13:30, and a halogen basking flood. The pothos I have in there is growing like crazy, but I wonder if hatchlings need to experience a full light spectrum? Thanks for your thoughts.
 

Markw84

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Mark, I have a question regarding your ambient lighting. Do you use plant grow lights strictly for the plants, or do you find there is a direct benefit to the tortoises by expanding the light index they are exposed to in the enclosure? I ask because I am running 6,500K LED lights, a 48" UVB that comes on from 12-13:30, and a halogen basking flood. The pothos I have in there is growing like crazy, but I wonder if hatchlings need to experience a full light spectrum? Thanks for your thoughts.
Yes, I do believe there is great benefit from a full spectrum. A good grow light does include some UVA and I believe UVA is also vital to tortoise well-being and their normal rhythms. Our UVB bulbs do provide a lot of UVA as well, but since I do not run mine all day, I like the bit of added UVA.

Even though baby tortoise want to remain hidden and use cover as much as possible, it is my belief that bright daylight ambient with good shaded hide options is the best.
 

Eredant

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Feedback after 1 week: 3/5 tortoises have grown in length. They haven't gained any weight. They do seem more active.
 

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