Penelope is pyramiding and I don't know why!

speckles&spud

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I am just at a loss because all of my digital hygrometers say humidity is 83-90% at as all times. She's also soaked daily for 30-45 minutes.The only thing I could think of was the fast rate in which she's growing. She's 11 months old and 338 gm. She's a big girl (or boy!) for her age I think.
See the paper I linked to right after your comment, as the study does make mention of unnatural growth rates resulting in pyramiding.
 

Reptilony

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Hi all,
While I own a Speke's Hingeback, I think everyone here would find the paper I'm about to reference interesting/relevant. My reptile vet gave it to me a few months back when we were discussing temps in my Speke's enclosure. I made a comment about my temps and she recommended reading this paper as it refutes some of the common knowledge. This study used Leopard and Sulcatas. This may give the OP some insight into adjustments they may need to make for their juvie.
Be sure to read the entire paper (it's short) and not just the abstract.

https://www.academia.edu/32659497/E...N_GROWTH_RATE_AND_CARAPACIAL_SCUTE_PYRAMIDING

Thank youIMG_1414.jpgIMG_1413.jpg
 

Nursemomzie

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Hi all,
While I own a Speke's Hingeback, I think everyone here would find the paper I'm about to reference interesting/relevant. My reptile vet gave it to me a few months back when we were discussing temps in my Speke's enclosure. I made a comment about my temps and she recommended reading this paper as it refutes some of the common knowledge. This study used Leopard and Sulcatas. This may give the OP some insight into adjustments they may need to make for their juvie.
Be sure to read the entire paper (it's short) and not just the abstract.

https://www.academia.edu/32659497/E...N_GROWTH_RATE_AND_CARAPACIAL_SCUTE_PYRAMIDING
Very good read. Thank you for sharing! Sounds like I might want to cut back on Penelope's buffet!
 

TammyJ

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Really? Not my tortoises, thank you. They thrive on an appropriate, balanced and sufficient diet. Cut back? Nah.
What was the set humidity level in the zoo compared to that in the research station? I bet those zoo tortoises were kept too dry!
 

speckles&spud

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Really? Not my tortoises, thank you. They thrive on an appropriate, balanced and sufficient diet. Cut back? Nah.
What was the set humidity level in the zoo compared to that in the research station? I bet those zoo tortoises were kept too dry!
You could always email the scientists who conducted this study and ask.
Also, this is one study investigating a narrower set of variables, which is acknowledged in the paper, but it would be nice to see replication before drawing concrete conclusions. The point is, while the study on this topic out there is limited, it is worth considering when attempting to do the best for our tortoises. Personal experience and anecdotes can be helpful, but it doesn't account for all the potential variables that could be contributing to tortoises thriving or not. I think all of us need to be humble in what we think we know.
Honestly, I wish there was loads more funding out there b/c there is so much information lacking in tort and turtle care!
 

Nursemomzie

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Really? Not my tortoises, thank you. They thrive on an appropriate, balanced and sufficient diet. Cut back? Nah.
What was the set humidity level in the zoo compared to that in the research station? I bet those zoo tortoises were kept too dry!
Honestly...I won't cut back. She loves to eat and she is definitely thriving. Her lighting, temps, and humidity are right where they need to be. I'm just going to be happy she's healthy! If she's cosmetically pyramiding that's ok.
 

JBurer

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It matters tremendously. The hotter the basking bulb, the more IR-A, and the more desiccation of the carapace you get, which leads to more and more severe pyramiding. I use the minimum wattage bulbs possible, and just enough to get the job of making a basking area done. I try to set my basking areas at no hotter than 95 at tortoise shell height. You don't need any more than that, and it keeps the effects of desiccation to a minimum.

Tom,
You've clearly had great success with your tortoises, so I'll generally defer to that experience.

Regarding temps - I'm seeing ground level temps in the sun around 120 here in Central Texas and the tortoises seem to love alternating between sun/shade. They're more active in these periods, eat more and seem more engaged. Weather here is generally the same as in the Leopards native range, at least in the summer, and I've tried to mimic that as much as possible.

In the middle of summer in CA, have you used an IR temp gun to measure ground temps where your tortoises like to bask outside?
Best,
John
 

TechnoCheese

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You could always email the scientists who conducted this study and ask.
Also, this is one study investigating a narrower set of variables, which is acknowledged in the paper, but it would be nice to see replication before drawing concrete conclusions. The point is, while the study on this topic out there is limited, it is worth considering when attempting to do the best for our tortoises. Personal experience and anecdotes can be helpful, but it doesn't account for all the potential variables that could be contributing to tortoises thriving or not. I think all of us need to be humble in what we think we know.
Honestly, I wish there was loads more funding out there b/c there is so much information lacking in tort and turtle care!

Tom has done multiple experiments on this topic. See “the end of pyramiding” for one.

https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/the-end-of-pyramiding.15137/
 

Nursemomzie

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Pyramiding is not caused by food and its not caused by over or under supplementation.

Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. This can manifest in many ways.

Some species are more prone to it. Leopards being one of the most prone to it. Some individuals within a species are more prone to it. Leaving babies outside for long periods of time tends to increase it. Using MVBs, spot bulbs, or bulbs that are too hot tend to increase it. Having heat lamps and heating elements outside the enclosure tends to increase it.

There is still a lot we don't know about it. I've been able to stop it completely in all sulcatas and my SA leopards. Around 10-20% of regular leopards and my Burmese stars still seem to show at least some mild pyramiding no matter what I do. Clutchmates growing up in the same enclosure on the same food and same routine show different results. Is it behavioral, as in the choices they might be making like basking more under the lamps or hiding in the humid hide more? Is it genetics? Both? Something else? I don't know yet. The quest for knowledge continues...

What I do know is that if all else is good, pyramiding is only cosmetic and your tortoise can be very healthy, even with some mild pyramiding.
Thank you Tom! Im thinking it has to be cosmetic only. I have followed your care sheets carefully since she was a hatchling.
 

TechnoCheese

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Are they published and I mean in legitimate white papers?

I’m not sure, but why should it matter? Can you not preform experiments that give better insight on the topic if you aren’t? Are the conclusions completely negligible? Should we just pretend the experiment was never conducted?
 

Tom

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Tom,
You've clearly had great success with your tortoises, so I'll generally defer to that experience.

Regarding temps - I'm seeing ground level temps in the sun around 120 here in Central Texas and the tortoises seem to love alternating between sun/shade. They're more active in these periods, eat more and seem more engaged. Weather here is generally the same as in the Leopards native range, at least in the summer, and I've tried to mimic that as much as possible.

In the middle of summer in CA, have you used an IR temp gun to measure ground temps where your tortoises like to bask outside?
Best,
John
The sun's rays are filtered by the atmosphere. The vapor layer effectively removes all of the IR-A. Our incandescent bulbs generate tremendous amounts of IR-A. It is these rays that desiccate the carapace and cause the pyramiding. Ground temps outside in the sun are a totally different matter than basking temps under an indoor bulb. The two different light/heat sources have very different properties and effects.
 

speckles&spud

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I’m not sure, but why should it matter? Can you not preform experiments that give better insight on the topic if you aren’t? Are the conclusions completely negligible? Should we just pretend the experiment was never conducted?
Because peer review is one of the critical aspects of the scientific method. Experiments are great, but they need the structure of the scientific method to increase confidence in hypotheses and to make sure those who conduct the experiments are accounting for all of the pitfalls. That's the value of peer review.

I'll repeat again: Personal experience and anecdotes can be helpful, but it doesn't account for all the potential variables that could be contributing to tortoises thriving or not. I think all of us need to be humble in what we think we know.

There's nothing wrong with making recommendations that have worked for us personally or friends or several friends or whatever, but every recommendation that isn't backed by peer reviewed study (and there are a lot of gaps in chelonia research) should be caveated.

The last thing any of us should do, is insist we have the final say on what should be done - and that's what I'm saying and why I linked this paper. My reptile vet sent this to me b/c I mentioned what people are currently saying causes pyramiding. The study she sent me adds nuance, and questions what's current conventional thought. That's the whole point of science - challenging our beliefs, illuminating the unknown, and improving on previous research or thought.

We should embrace the fact that we'll never know ALL THE THINGS, and use the research that is out there to help guide us in our care.

Please read the paper in full.
 

Tom

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I am just at a loss because all of my digital hygrometers say humidity is 83-90% at as all times. She's also soaked daily for 30-45 minutes.The only thing I could think of was the fast rate in which she's growing. She's 11 months old and 338 gm. She's a big girl (or boy!) for her age I think.
338 is not big for 11 months. Mine are typically 600-800 grams at that age. Near 1000 at 12 months.
 

Tom

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Really? A Babcocki that's 1000 gm at 12 months?
D'OH!!! No. I'm sorry. Clicking back and forth between threads and I'm referencing sulcata babies. My apologies. 338 is a good size for a leopard tortoise at that age.
 

Nursemomzie

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D'OH!!! No. I'm sorry. Clicking back and forth between threads and I'm referencing sulcata babies. My apologies. 338 is a good size for a leopard tortoise at that age.
No problem! Glad to hear that's a good size.
 

ricks45

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I am just at a loss because all of my digital hygrometers say humidity is 83-90% at as all times. She's also soaked daily for 30-45 minutes.The only thing I could think of was the fast rate in which she's growing. She's 11 months old and 338 gm. She's a big girl (or boy!) for her age I think.
My 2 Sulcatas are 7 months old and they are 574 grams and 619 grams.
 

Cheryl Hills

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My two cents. I would rather listen to people thatraise and house torts on a daily bases. Scientific studies are good but lack that daily care and attention from there owners. People here on the forum have done so much research on their torts and provide results, good results. That is the ones I will trust. I am raising baby sulcatas following @Tom s method and they are doing great with very little to no pyramiding. I will continue to follow his advice. He has proven to me, through his research and raising his babies, that it works. We don’t know what humidity was usd on this scientific study, I know what Toms was. And as the scientific study said, all of theirs pyramided. Mine have not.

PS: I also follow others here on the forum, not just Tom
 
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