Signs of pyramiding? Healthy growth?

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

Does this shell growth look okay or are there signs of pyramiding? Does he look overall healthy? Loki is just over 7 months old, shell length of about 5.8cm and weighs an average of 40g. I feed a mix of lettuces, clover, chickweed and pansy leaves every day and dust with nutrobal over every other day, mist his 2x4 ftft enclosu every day (Coco coir and topsoil mix substrate), bath him every day and his MVB bulb is on 12 hours a day, which heats up substrate under it to around 35°C. Humidity level is around 60%.

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

You need to get a better humidity in a closed chamber. He has lots of pyramiding which only happens on the top shell.

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

wellington said:
You need to get a better humidity in a closed chamber. He has lots of pyramiding which only happens on the top shell.

Are you suggesting switching to a vivarium instead of an open table? Or that I need to get a humid hide? If so do you think one of those half log hides with sphagnum moss underneath would be sufficient? Thanks

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

Yes a closed chamber/vivarium. The pyramiding is not slight so a humid hide would not be enough for the amount already going on.

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

wellington said:
Yes a closed chamber/vivarium. The pyramiding is not slight so a humid hide would not be enough for the amount already going on.

Ok thanks.
Is there any way I can change my table into a Viv? E.g. adding clear acrylic on the lid instead of wire mesh?

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

Absolutely you can. You can even take plastic sheeting and some wood or PVC to make a frame that goes over your enclosure and drape the plastic over that, like a greenhouse. This will give you some height for heating and lighting so it's not so close to your tort.
Also if your using a mercury vapor bulb switch it for a tube florescent for uvb and then use che's and/or incandescent 40-60 watt for more light and heat.
The mercury vapor bulbs doesnt help to stop or prevent pyramiding.

SweetGreekTorts · Mar 10, 2019

ayrgrn said:
Ok thanks.
Is there any way I can change my table into a Viv? E.g. adding clear acrylic on the lid instead of wire mesh?

Of course! I built new tortoise tables for all my babies and simply put a clear shower curtain over the entire thing. It holds in the humidity and heat so well that I don't even use a humidifier. Here are pics of two tables, and with the shower curtain set up.

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

SweetGreekTorts said:
Of course! I built new tortoise tables for all my babies and simply put a clear shower curtain over the entire thing. It holds in the humidity and heat so well that I don't even use a humidifier. Here are pics of two tables, and with the shower curtain set up.View attachment 266946 View attachment 266947

Thanks for posting the pics. Exactly what I was describing

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

wellington said:
Absolutely you can. You can even take plastic sheeting and some wood or PVC to make a frame that goes over your enclosure and drape the plastic over that, like a greenhouse. This will give you some height for heating and lighting so it's not so close to your tort.
Also if your using a mercury vapor bulb switch it for a tube florescent for uvb and then use che's and/or incandescent 40-60 watt for more light and heat.
The mercury vapor bulbs doesnt help to stop or prevent pyramiding.

SweetGreekTorts said:
Of course! I built new tortoise tables for all my babies and simply put a clear shower curtain over the entire thing. It holds in the humidity and heat so well that I don't even use a humidifier. Here are pics of two tables, and with the shower curtain set up.View attachment 266946 View attachment 266947

This is great, thank you so much for all of the info! I will definitely look into converting my table into a Viv!

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

wellington said:
Thanks for posting the pics. Exactly what I was describing

SweetGreekTorts said:
Of course! I built new tortoise tables for all my babies and simply put a clear shower curtain over the entire thing. It holds in the humidity and heat so well that I don't even use a humidifier. Here are pics of two tables, and with the shower curtain set up.View attachment 266946 View attachment 266947

One last thing, I read on the updated Hermann's care sheet on TFO and it states that vivs should not be used due to it being "like a green house" and that tortoise tables should be used. I'm a bit confused now lol

Is it recommended to use a Viv or not?

SweetGreekTorts · Mar 10, 2019

ayrgrn said:
One last thing, I read on the updated Hermann's care sheet on TFO and it states that vivs should not be used due to it being "like a green house" and that tortoise tables should be used. I'm a bit confused now lol

Is it recommended to use a Viv or not?

You want to maintain a "hot and humid" environment. I prefer tortoise tables over vivariums, which is why I use the shower curtain over the top of mine. More airflow and more space in the enclosure.

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

Glass vivs are fine too use as long as they are indoors. Glass is bad if placed in the sun out of controlled heat. Most will cover the glass at tort level so they cant see out. Some torts aren't bothered by the glass some are.
If you read down further in the caresheet, Chris uses rubbermade tubs with the lids on causing a higher humidity which is what you want. He then removes them during the day it sounds like. However, he may be removing the lids to let in natural sunlight.
You will be using artificial light and heat so you dont need to leave the top off.

ayrgrn · Mar 10, 2019

wellington said:
Glass vivs are fine too use as long as they are indoors. Glass is bad if placed in the sun out of controlled heat. Most will cover the glass at tort level so they cant see out. Some torts aren't bothered by the glass some are.
If you read down further in the caresheet, Chris uses rubbermade tubs with the lids on causing a higher humidity which is what you want. He then removes them during the day it sounds like. However, he may be removing the lids to let in natural sunlight.
You will be using artificial light and heat so you dont need to leave the top off.

SweetGreekTorts said:
You want to maintain a "hot and humid" environment. I prefer tortoise tables over vivariums, which is why I use the shower curtain over the top of mine. More airflow and more space in the enclosure.

Okay so here is my enclosure right now (light is off because it's night)

If I changed the mesh to a clear acrylic sheet, how would I ventilate the enclosure?
Thanks for all the info so far as well guys

wellington · Mar 10, 2019

Closed chamber which has the lights inside gets air exchange from the daily opening to give water, food, clean etc. Plus they aren't built 100% air tight.
Your will have too have the lights and heat on the outside so you will have too cut holes in the plastic for lights and heat to sit over so along with daily opening to feed etc, you will get some air exchange from the holes in the plastic.
Your kid now and with the plastic will be too low to put lights and heat inside.

Hermione · Mar 11, 2019

wellington said:
Closed chamber which has the lights inside gets air exchange from the daily opening to give water, food, clean etc. Plus they aren't built 100% air tight.
Your will have too have the lights and heat on the outside so you will have too cut holes in the plastic for lights and heat to sit over so along with daily opening to feed etc, you will get some air exchange from the holes in the plastic.
Your kid now and with the plastic will be too low to put lights and heat inside.

Hermione · Mar 11, 2019

Sorry, isn't the tortoise the OP is showing a Hermann ? I must say that's very unusual advice for husbandry of a Mediterranean tortoise.
I wouldn't describe that as extensive pyramiding ?

ayrgrn · Mar 11, 2019

Hermione said:
Sorry, isn't the tortoise the OP is showing a Hermann ? I must say that's very unusual advice for husbandry of a Mediterranean tortoise.
I wouldn't describe that as extensive pyramiding ?

Yeah he's a baby Hermann's, I must say I didn't think he was pyramiding that much, I thought it was natural for all tortoises to experience a little in their youth but I'm not sure with all of this different info..

Hermione · Mar 11, 2019

There is a Jackson Ratio for hatchlings you can use if concerned, on which he is perfect if not marginally under average weight. It seems to me you have understood his needs perfectly and just continue making sure he's really well hydrated. Hermanns are one of the hardiest breeds who benefit from as much secure outdoor time as possible on good weather days.
I'm not familiar with the needs of the more "tropical" tortoises, but having been a breeder of smooth shelled Hermanns and Iberas for many years I have never covered them with tent type enclosures.
Soak daily warm water 15 minutes mist substrate early afternoon and give humid hide for sleeping. Feed weed based diet, not pelleted food.
Only comment would be 35 degrees is higher than necessary 30 is ample.
All the best

ayrgrn · Mar 11, 2019

Hermione said:
There is a Jackson Ratio for hatchlings you can use if concerned, on which he is perfect if not marginally under average weight. It seems to me you have understood his needs perfectly and just continue making sure he's really well hydrated. Hermanns are one of the hardiest breeds who benefit from as much secure outdoor time as possible on good weather days.
I'm not familiar with the needs of the more "tropical" tortoises, but having been a breeder of smooth shelled Hermanns and Iberas for many years I have never covered them with tent type enclosures.
Soak daily warm water 15 minutes mist substrate early afternoon and give humid hide for sleeping. Feed weed based diet, not pelleted food.
Only comment would be 35 degrees is higher than necessary 30 is ample.
All the best

Those torts are adorable!! And their shells look very similar to Loki's. I have been trying my hardest to look after him as much as possible, I think I've gone wrong by not making a humid hide but I will do that asap, wooden half log hide with sphagnum moss underneath sound okay? Or do I need to use a plastic container shaped hide?I soak him in 25-30°c water every day for a minimum of 30 minutes and mist his enclosure about 2-3 times a day

Thanks for all the info and the picture!

wellington · Mar 11, 2019

Hermione said:
There is a Jackson Ratio for hatchlings you can use if concerned, on which he is perfect if not marginally under average weight. It seems to me you have understood his needs perfectly and just continue making sure he's really well hydrated. Hermanns are one of the hardiest breeds who benefit from as much secure outdoor time as possible on good weather days.
I'm not familiar with the needs of the more "tropical" tortoises, but having been a breeder of smooth shelled Hermanns and Iberas for many years I have never covered them with tent type enclosures.
Soak daily warm water 15 minutes mist substrate early afternoon and give humid hide for sleeping. Feed weed based diet, not pelleted food.
Only comment would be 35 degrees is higher than necessary 30 is ample.
All the best

A humid hide is not going to help this one that's already pyramided and obviously neither is the spraying as they have been doing that.
The caresheet on this forum is well written by an experienced hermanns breeder.
I should say a humid hide alone will not help with the pyramiding that has started as its already quite progressive.

Signs of pyramiding? Healthy growth?

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