Pros and cons of using rubber "wood chips" as substrate inside indoor enclosures?

Tom

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I could see that. A lot of what I know about animals, I have learned from keeping chickens. In chickens, anything in wood is bad. As far as equipment goes, you want plastic or metal, because they are easy to clean. Wood is a huge no no because wood is porous, and will retain microbes and water. So the poultry experts recommend painting any structure that is wood with something that repels moisture so that it can be easily and thoroughly cleaned. Rubber, seems to me like a product that is non-porous and easily cleaned. So I didn't think it would be too much of a stretch to apply the same principles to tortoises. I can see what you mean about how it could create films of bacteria on the surface of the rubber, but isn't it intriguing how it can be cleaned periodically?
All true info about the chickens, and much of what you said is also USDA regulation. My company has USDA permits and these things are regularly inspected at my ranch. However, totally different animals, totally different type and amount of waste being generated, and a totally different housing situation. We aren't trying to maintain sterile conditions for these tiny little shelled reptiles. The amount of waste and type of waste generated by even a single chicken is exponentially more than what is generated by a little tortoise. The type of waste too is completely different. Also, since we soak our babies daily, almost no waste is deposited into the enclosure onto the substrate. Any that is deposited is easy to remove. Not like the more liquid chicken waste that squirts everywhere and gets into everything. A tortoise turd sits on top and waits for pick up.

Every animal species has different housing requirements. I don't house the dogs the same as the chickens, and I don't house the camel, the same as the kangaroo. I don't keep a fish only tank the same as a reef tank. I don't house lizards the same as snakes, and I don't house my roach colonies the same as my tortoises. Every species has individual requirements. Baby tortoises require a thick damp substrate that they can dig into, that resists bacterial and fungal growth, and that absorbs moisture so that it can slowly allow that moisture to evaporate and generate much needed humidity. Your rubber chip substrate misses two out of these three, and its also smelly and possibly toxic.
 

Stoneman

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I know you use plastic mats as a method for reducing parasitic and bacteria transmission, and your general aversion to organic substrates, but I want to point out that coco coir husk has been to studied and confirmed to be anti-bacterial. Please see the following two links validating the anti-microbial properties of the substrate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4121915/

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1319562X12000848

Beyond the anti-microbial properties, there are multiple benefits such as increasing ambient humidity and providing a means for natural behaviors such as digging/scrapes.

Thank you.
 

Stoneman

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Please explain/cite the "extremely unstable and toxic" compounds found in standard organic substrates such as coir and fir bark chips that is advocated here on the forum.

Car tire rubber (which is used in making rubber chips) has been researched and scientifically verified as having "several water-soluble compounds that can leach into water and have toxic effects on aquatic organisms." Furthermore, the addition of UVB bulbs(found in most indoor enclosures) can further increase the leeching of toxic compounds from the rubber mulch.

Link to the above-referenced study

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15620758

Some thoughts....

Interesting. That's terrible we are so defendant on it for our lifestyles.
 

Stoneman

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All true info about the chickens, and much of what you said is also USDA regulation. My company has USDA permits and these things are regularly inspected at my ranch. However, totally different animals, totally different type and amount of waste being generated, and a totally different housing situation. We aren't trying to maintain sterile conditions for these tiny little shelled reptiles. The amount of waste and type of waste generated by even a single chicken is exponentially more than what is generated by a little tortoise. The type of waste too is completely different. Also, since we soak our babies daily, almost no waste is deposited into the enclosure onto the substrate. Any that is deposited is easy to remove. Not like the more liquid chicken waste that squirts everywhere and gets into everything. A tortoise turd sits on top and waits for pick up.

Every animal species has different housing requirements. I don't house the dogs the same as the chickens, and I don't house the camel, the same as the kangaroo. I don't keep a fish only tank the same as a reef tank. I don't house lizards the same as snakes, and I don't house my roach colonies the same as my tortoises. Every species has individual requirements. Baby tortoises require a thick damp substrate that they can dig into, that resists bacterial and fungal growth, and that absorbs moisture so that it can slowly allow that moisture to evaporate and generate much needed humidity. Your rubber chip substrate misses two out of these three, and its also smelly and possibly toxic.
Well said Tom. Thank you.
 

ZEROPILOT

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Hm-m-m-m. . . interesting. When I saw the subject line I wasn't even interested in reading the thread, but it kept coming up, so decided to read it. First thing I thought was the smell. And your tire store analogy is spot on. I hate that smell. And I can't imagine my poor tortoise having to smell it 24/7. "They" use it in school playgrounds under the swings and slides, so it can't be harmful, however those places are outside and not in an enclosure.

So, for me, I say no thank you. But thanks for the discussion. It was interesting reading.
Ok. So. I'm the ONLY MEMBER that thinks new tires smell good?
 

ascott

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Alright, so I know 90% of everyone on here is going to blow a gasket at the thought of someone using rubber flooring for their substrate, but, I would like for you to look at the facts with me and hopefully you can learn, or provide experience or some other valuable insight after reading and thoughtfully responding if you have something to contribute. I apologize for beginning the thread so defensively, but I have started conversations like this and I have gotten a lot of flak.

I am not particularly interested in building "natural" settings. I think they are only natural superficially, and are not natural in the right ways. For example, I use artificial grass and bacteria resistant yoga mats for substrate now. There are areas for potentially egg laying adults that have clean play sand mixed with coco coir. No top soil. This is much easier to know that the soil does not contain harmful parasites, toxic chemical compounds, etc. It is a controlled environment. Plastic boxes with sponges attached to the roof have proven to be much more successful than a wood container with long strand sphagnum moss which is known to cause compaction and other digestive problems.

Another point, people say they should do best in natural settings, but how many of us keep our dogs in natural settings? I am guessing just about none. They love their pillowy dog bed, the couch, your bed, they don't love living in the dirt in a cave. And neither do we, even though that was most natural for us for a while. Without shoes.

So with all that being said, why not rubber wood chips? It strengthens their muscles because they have to climb over and dig into the uneven terrain. The rubber acts as a great shock absorber on their joints or in case they fall. The rubber, unlike bark, repels moisture, poop, and microorganisms that porous wood soaks up, and makes it nearly impossible to clean thoroughly. The rubber can be cleaned periodically and reused. As long as it does not rot it has a long life. It is recycled rubber which lowers environmental impact. The only ways that it can become toxic, is if it is either heated or burned. So if I have safe, smart heating system and use chunks that are large and durable enough to not be easily consumable, I think I have the best of both worlds.

Has anyone ever used this? Or had it in your yard around a tree that your tortoise was exposed to?

No. I do match the tort with close to like materials that they would naturally find....that is my job. I am housing animals forced to be kept in spaces that are not what they would exactly be in naturally...so why the hell would I add insult to injury by forcing them to live on rubber tires...please? Seriously?
 
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Lol....I don't know about anyone else...but my ding a ling will eat a white rock if given the chance! But what can I say...its a boy. So i wouldn't chance the rubber because of his unique taste for inedible objects...aside from all the helpful advice and suggestions you've already received. I've always used and am crazy about coco coir as many others are. Really holds on to the humidity. And i too just toss the freshly changed and newly "fertilized" coco coir into the garden. Working in a garden nursery for years....i actually use it as a mulch also...but not pressed up to the plant stem...and it keeps moisture in the ground and fertilizing the plant as you water. For your veggies...Just mix into soil fort the gift that keeps on giving! As they are not meat eaters the dirty coir is perfectly fine to use
 

Stoneman

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No. I do match the tort with close to like materials that they would naturally find....that is my job. I am housing animals forced to be kept in spaces that are not what they would exactly be in naturally...so why the hell would I add insult to injury by forcing them to live on rubber tires...please? Seriously?

I appreciate and understand the perspective of the naturalist. However, I think of tortoises, like my dogs, as to be more like small children. Simple, with simple desires and simple needs. I think it can be argued that a dog is more intelligent than tortoises. What makes a dog happy? To play games, be safe, comfortable, and maybe pass on Genes one day. To have the rubber ball thrown for them. To run around in the artificially manicured lawn. Of course, having an entire mountain would probably make them happier than a backyard, but, would they exchange the mountain for a couch and constant supply of food? Maybe. Maybe not. It's hard to tell what they would choose. But we have some clues as where to start. My objective in providing an environment is not naturalism, but looking at their behavior and biology and basing their enclosures on that.

Clean shock absorbing floor ☆
Plastic baths for exercise and experiment ☆
plastic humid hides with artificial sponges ☆
Lots of corners as to feel safe and secure ☆
Artificially created humidity, light, heat, and UV? ☆
Manufactured bowls with unnaturally procured food and water sources? ☆

I have seen a lot of beautiful terrariums, but most of the time I think, was the person doing this for themself? As a way to show to friends? Or are they anthropomorphising the needs of the tortoise? Is that truly what the tortoise wants? I bet many tortoises would prefer a plastic hide with food in its bowl over a plant that provides no angled security, that it cannot reach to eat.
 

Stoneman

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Lol....I don't know about anyone else...but my ding a ling will eat a white rock if given the chance! But what can I say...its a boy. So i wouldn't chance the rubber because of his unique taste for inedible objects...aside from all the helpful advice and suggestions you've already received. I've always used and am crazy about coco coir as many others are. Really holds on to the humidity. And i too just toss the freshly changed and newly "fertilized" coco coir into the garden. Working in a garden nursery for years....i actually use it as a mulch also...but not pressed up to the plant stem...and it keeps moisture in the ground and fertilizing the plant as you water. For your veggies...Just mix into soil fort the gift that keeps on giving! As they are not meat eaters the dirty coir is perfectly fine to use

Thank you for sharing your experience about your tortoises behavior, it is interesting you say that is why you use coco coir, that is exactly why I do not use it. I worry about all of those little stands getting stuck inside their body. But, I am not sure how I would feel of they were eating the rubber either. That is why I was looking into it.

Thank you for sharing your gardening experience. I get worried about salmonella transmission, but I think if that is ruled out then it is probably safe to use in a garden.
 

ascott

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Thank you for sharing your experience about your tortoises behavior, it is interesting you say that is why you use coco coir, that is exactly why I do not use it. I worry about all of those little stands getting stuck inside their body. But, I am not sure how I would feel of they were eating the rubber either. That is why I was looking into it.

Thank you for sharing your gardening experience. I get worried about salmonella transmission, but I think if that is ruled out then it is probably safe to use in a garden.

How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human.

There is no way that you can convince me that "trying" to match their natural environment is a failed attempt. I mean, placing rubber in the enclosure simply because you, a human, believe it is best does not make it so.

I am a bit offended that you automatically label me a "naturalist"...I mean, exactly what the hell do you mean by that label. When I say I try to match as close as I can their natural environment of course I know the difference between fake environment with items that they would NEVER come into contact with vs materials that are close to their natural environment is a negative thing. I actually believe now that you are a person that is trying to convince others that your way is the right way because some how you are not an "environmentalist" again, not exactly sure of what that means here in this context....but I would have to vote for closer to natural than an environment covered in rubber???? hmmm?
 

Stoneman

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How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human.

There is no way that you can convince me that "trying" to match their natural environment is a failed attempt. I mean, placing rubber in the enclosure simply because you, a human, believe it is best does not make it so.

I am a bit offended that you automatically label me a "naturalist"...I mean, exactly what the hell do you mean by that label. When I say I try to match as close as I can their natural environment of course I know the difference between fake environment with items that they would NEVER come into contact with vs materials that are close to their natural environment is a negative thing. I actually believe now that you are a person that is trying to convince others that your way is the right way because some how you are not an "environmentalist" again, not exactly sure of what that means here in this context....but I would have to vote for closer to natural than an environment covered in rubber???? hmmm?

When something is really important to me, I try to break it down into things I understand. I try to simplify things. I am a simple man. There is so much in this world that I do not understand. If I had all the time in the world, I would try to learn it, but I know, that the would still be so much that I knew too little about.

When I think about my understanding, and everyone's understanding in general, I like to think of it like a map of the world. Everyone has an idea of what it, or parts of it, look like. Some are more accurate than others. Some have different types of details than others.

It seems strange to me that the ground that is walked can have such great importance in the quality of life and health of an animal. When I first got into tortoises, I lot of time trying to figure out what was best. It seemed simple in the beginning, to just use dirt, and hydrate it. I got my tortoises from LLL and after having them for about six months, I thought it would be best to give them a fecal scree , as a way to monitor their health. They were loaded with parasites. Parasites that live in the dirt, and can be re-transmitted from the dirt, even after medication. This was not something I wanted again so I started looking into alternatives.

My local exotic vet told me to use a substrate that can be easily cleaned. I like the natural look of dirt, but I am concerned about its ability to transmit pathogens. The wood bark seems like a good alternative, since everything discussed in the study I posted states that it has antimicrobial properties, is not easily ingested, allows burrowing, does not emit toxic vapors, retains humidy, and is easily scraped up and discarded. The fact that it is naturally produced in nature is a plus, but it is the other factors that are most intriguing to me.

I have environmentalist values. I am terrified of climate change, even though many of my countrymen are blinded by the petroleum, coal, and natural gas lobbyists. I recently posted an article on my facebook about how plastification of our seas and our environment is causing catastrophic effects that will last forever.

I did not mean to offend but implying that you were a naturalist. I did a google search of naturalist, and it said that naturalism is a synonym to naturalistic. I have uploaded a screenshot of what my phone says that means. I was, and still am, under the impression that you feel that which is most natural is best practice. I understand and appreciate your perspective. I think it is a noble pursuit. and I think more tortoises would live longer and healthier lives if they had caretakers as thoughtful as you are. I know it takes a lot of work to try to recreate that, and that you are passionate about trying to create and maintain the best environment possible for your chelonian friends. I am too. But I see it from a different perspective.

However, instead of using my time and resources for recreating nature, I am trying to develop a program around their biology, and the microbiological factors as well. Giving them baths daily in plastic bowls is not natural, but it provides exercise, digestive flow, and hydration. So I do it. This is an example of why and how I do the things I do.

I once saw rubber wood chips in a garden store about six months ago. Last week I debated internally about whether or not it would be a good idea for substate. I wondered if anyone else had any experience with it, since I have never used it, even in a garden. I have never held it. I have never picked it up and smelled it. I have never tried to break it apart. I have no idea how strong it's structural integrity is, or if it has metal wires as someone has suggested. I am going to reiterate, at this point in time, I do not think it would be a good thing to use. Fortunately the are a lot of great minds on this forum who have a collective knowledge of a lot of things. That's exactly why I asked. I did not start this thread to prove a point, but to discuss the pros and cons of using this as a substrate. Orchid bark has much better properties according to scientific studies and steward experience.
 

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Stoneman

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How exactly would you rule out Salmonella transmission? I do not believe you would be able to. Therefore, I would not use the rubber simply because you, a human, think you can outsmart nature...silly human.

Mother nature has a lot of secrets. Our government has tried to protect us from those more harmful things that we can be exposed to, like controls to limit the spread of salmonella transference. Which is why the FDA implemented the toxic 4" rule, which has been extremely bad for CBW propagation of tortoise species in the United States. It is kind of silly they ban tortoises for sale under 4", but not baby chickens or dogs, which can also be contagious asymptomatic carriers of the disease.

I am sorry if I seem ignorant, but I am struggling to understand what you are upset about in this paragraph. My concern with the disease transmission is that I have read that salmonella pullorium can be transmitted through the feces, and that if someone puts that in contact with vegetables they handle and do not cook, that it can be contagious. I was hoping to warn the person who made the response about why it is potentially dangerous to do that. Salmonella can be dangerous to people, especially the elderly and children. That's why it is recommended to not bathe your tortoise in the kitchen sink, and to keep the food and terra cotta feeding bowels separate from things your regular food stuff.

If you want to rule out salmonella transmission, you can take one of two steps that I have done. You can buy a microscope, and a centrifuge machine, and see the bacteria. Or, you can use a salmonella pullorium antigen, and it will coagulate instantly if it tests positive. I bought the antigen for chickens. But, I am sure it would work for tortoises. I would recommend anyone by the scope and centrifuge. It is easy to spot parasites, and can lead to saving the lives of tons of tortoises. Many, many reptiles die from high parasite loads every day. They are the cost of only about five fecal sample tests, and you can test them as frequently as you want for free after you buy the setup. I know it's not natural, but I think it would be a great way to help tortoises. Here is a screenshot of my purchase history at that time. I believe I got the scope from the manufacturer. Everything set me back only about $350. A great investment in long term care, in my opinion.

https://www.strombergschickens.com/product/pullorum-antigen-1000-tests/Poultry-Vaccines-Blood-Tests

https://www.biovac.ceva.com/en/Reagents/Avian-reagent/Salmonella
 

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TammyJ

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Stoneman, I respect you for your intelligence and patience in promoting your idea. Let us know how it works for you as an experiment!
I suppose I am imagining myself as a tortoise, clambering and struggling and sliding around all my life on rubber wood chips and feeling rather hopeless.
 

Stoneman

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I made a mistake. I wrote something wrong. Pullorium and salmonella are separate bugs. Pullorium is a virus. Both have antigens available that provide immediate results.
 

Stoneman

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Stoneman, I respect you for your intelligence and patience in promoting your idea. Let us know how it works for you as an experiment!
I suppose I am imagining myself as a tortoise, clambering and struggling and sliding around all my life on rubber wood chips and feeling rather hopeless.

Thank you Tammy. I appreciate this. I did feel pretty good about the idea, until others who are more informed and experienced on certain things showed me some setbacks in the plan. For one, Tom stated that it would likely trap moisture. I have had water collect and sit under terra cotta plates, and it got moldy. I am sure this would happen if there was a water spill, because the water would not dissipate.

I do think it has some advantages in theory, but in practice I don't think it would work as well as orchid bark, cedar, or probably even ground coco coir. My intent was not to promote rubber chips, but to show everyone the potential benefits I thought it might have, so that the idea was not immediately rejected. I have no skin in the game either way. I have no interest in pursuing this, and I will not be conducting any experiments with it. I do not recommend others do it either.

I do however, recommend that we seek creative and innovative solutions to our stewardship, and that if anyone comes up with out of the box or atypical solutions, I am the first to want to hear about it, and that thay should let all of the rest of us know about it so we can work together on projects and benefit from each others ingenuity.
 

Stoneman

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rubber does dry rot...ask anyone with campers or cars in storage,it cracks and becomes unstable
Yes, I know armor all on car tires helps, and so does minimizing exposure to UV Ray's. Too bad torts need UV, and I am going to bet armor all does not add a whole lot of benefit to tortoise health
 

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