Tortoise Enrichment

drew54

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Maybe the tort does not actually "choose" anything as we think of a choice. Maybe he sees the food in the dish and in the toy, but thinks of the toy as if it was another tort holding on to what should be HIS food, and attacks it.
Wee may never actually know without getting in their heads and knowing how they think and feel.
 

Joma

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I think that moderate stress can produce resilience. Anything new or unusual produces stress, adaptive behavior and then increased resilience in most individuals and, on a meta level, in species. Its a good thing! The trick is finding that "moderate" place - some, but not too much. In zoos, animal shelters etc it is easy to see the result of "too much" and the resulting severe stress responses. Agree with @JoesMum that a disruption to normal, basic life sustaining activities would be a severe stress response in tortoises. I say stick a ball full of food in their enclosure and let em struggle a little, as long as they have alternative food sources and continue to access them.
 

LaLaP

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One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?
 

drew54

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I think that moderate stress can produce resilience. Anything new or unusual produces stress, adaptive behavior and then increased resilience in most individuals and, on a meta level, in species. Its a good thing! The trick is finding that "moderate" place - some, but not too much. In zoos, animal shelters etc it is easy to see the result of "too much" and the resulting severe stress responses. Agree with @JoesMum that a disruption to normal, basic life sustaining activities would be a severe stress response in tortoises. I say stick a ball full of food in their enclosure and let em struggle a little, as long as they have alternative food sources and continue to access them.

This is where my train of thought is. They are amazing creatures that are very capable of adapting and finding enrichment.
 

drew54

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One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?

I have seen many torts that like to slide. I don't think they would keep doing it if wasn't enjoyable. Even though they don't have a brain like mammals I do believe they still have the ability to feel things such as enjoyment.
 
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When it comes down to it I believe having any wild animal as a pet is to some degree stressfull for them and a selfish act by us.Maybe as humans we have a self centered and incorrect belief that we are better and or smarter than any and all other living creatures in our universe.That being said I care for two Redfoots aquired when I found them left behind in a house I helped clean out after tenants were evicted.What was I to do murder them and think I was putting them out of their misery? I like the idea of trying to enrich their lives as best we can and think each day is a learning experience and all we can do is try the best we can to keep our torts safe, healthy and hopefully happy.Best of luck to each and every member here and of course to your torts as well.
Patrick
 

mark1

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with newer methods of mapping the brain in trying to understand the evolution of the mammalian brain , I believe they are finding more similarities in the function of various structures than previously known ….

let one figure out how to escape , they sure don't forget that ……...
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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When it comes down to it I believe having any wild animal as a pet is to some degree stressfull for them and a selfish act by us.Maybe as humans we have a self centered and incorrect belief that we are better and or smarter than any and all other living creatures in our universe.That being said I care for two Redfoots aquired when I found them left behind in a house I helped clean out after tenants were evicted.What was I to do murder them and think I was putting them out of their misery? I like the idea of trying to enrich their lives as best we can and think each day is a learning experience and all we can do is try the best we can to keep our torts safe, healthy and hopefully happy.Best of luck to each and every member here and of course to your torts as well.
Patrick

I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily
Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?
 
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When it comes down to it I think that as a species the human race is narsasistic at the core and more than likely messed it up for the rest of us.
Speaking for the torts of this world of course
 
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I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily
Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?
Let's just hope that what we do is not to little to late. Support for places like this where we might learn to better our environment is the least we can do.
 
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One of my torts likes to slide... I built a 2nd story loft for my Russian's enclosure and I was experimenting with ramp angle. I used a long box that my fluorescent tubes came in which happens to be just a little bigger than my tortoise. After I got the length and angle right he would go up and then slide back down over and over. I had meant to add something for some grip on the bottom but he seems to like sliding so much I've just left it. This has to be for enjoyment, right?
Now I wonder thinking back to this last summer we were camping and I built a hide out of a new metal garbage can laid down and half filled with soil,moss,leaves and mulch for the torts inside the tent.Danielle would exit the hide by sliding down the ramp I installed.I thought she didn't like the hide and because of her back legs,and the angle of the ramp it was all she could do. But just maybe, and I hope so,she was enjoying herself!
 

drew54

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Now I wonder thinking back to this last summer we were camping and I built a hide out of a new metal garbage can laid down and half filled with soil,moss,leaves and mulch for the torts inside the tent.Danielle would exit the hide by sliding down the ramp I installed.I thought she didn't like the hide and because of her back legs,and the angle of the ramp it was all she could do. But just maybe, and I hope so,she was enjoying herself!
Torts remind me of children, teens, and adults. I have seen many childlike torts with playful like behaviors. I have seen stubborn torts (I have one, she is a princess). I have seen torts that are seemingly wise and old. Whats wrong with her back legs?
 

TammyJ

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I respect what your saying. But why is turtles and torts disappearing on a daily
Bases ? But red ear sliders doing so well ! Is it because people got in to them ?
Can I ask what you mean by your questions, Grandpa Turtle? Do you mean that RES's are surviving better because they are more popular than other turtles and tortoises?
(Red eared sliders must like to slide more than other turtles too...maybe that is how they got that name!)
But anyway, can you elaborate on your questions? I used to keep RES's, babies that I got from the pet shop here in Jamaica, but I very rarely see them being sold here any more, and maybe that is a good thing, if they too are at risk from over-collection by humans.
 

Grandpa Turtle 144

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Can I ask what you mean by your questions, Grandpa Turtle? Do you mean that RES's are surviving better because they are more popular than other turtles and tortoises?
(Red eared sliders must like to slide more than other turtles too...maybe that is how they got that name!)
But anyway, can you elaborate on your questions? I used to keep RES's, babies that I got from the pet shop here in Jamaica, but I very rarely see them being sold here any more, and maybe that is a good thing, if they too are at risk from over-collection by humans.

People started having and raising RES and their population grew to very large numbers. Now the RES are all over the world in large numbers. Maybe if they would let more people Have endangered torts to raise their numbers would grow the same ![emoji217]
 

mark1

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Seen a study on red eared slider populations in a native river system , I believe in the rio grand , it showed a population decline due to urbanization ……… as far as being introduced into other habitat , it’s been at the expense of native species , particularly native turtle populations not as aggressive , adaptable or prolific …….
 

PharSytid

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The issue with reptiles and these seemingly enjoyable moments and behaviors is that because they don't have a hippocampus (the part of the brain that's believed to control emotions, learning, etc.) it's believed they are incapable of these things. Also, since we can't tell how a tortoise thinks and feels we assume that the observable behaviors that we can't explain outside of basic instinct is in fact that basic instinct we understand and observe frequently. This leading to the conclusion that we owners, enthusiasts, and alike humanize these creatures and in doing so we see the behaviors that wee want to see. Like a self fulfilling prophecy.

I'm sure they do find things interesting, amusing, etc. Definitely not to the extent that we do though. But until we are able to get inside a reptiles head we will never know.
I beg to differ. Each one in my Sulcata trio has shown me definite responses to different things I do. For example, when I pick them up and talk to them, they extend their necks for head rubs; while in their enclosure, they will follow the sound of my voice and come to me; and they almost always give me a smile when I pet their backs.
I appreciate your comment about their lack of a hippocampus, but I know from my experience with my torts that they can learn, respond and are unique in their personalities. Un-fuzzies affection greatly differs from fuzzies; however, I see it displayed every single day!
 

drew54

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I beg to differ. Each one in my Sulcata trio has shown me definite responses to different things I do. For example, when I pick them up and talk to them, they extend their necks for head rubs; while in their enclosure, they will follow the sound of my voice and come to me; and they almost always give me a smile when I pet their backs.
I appreciate your comment about their lack of a hippocampus, but I know from my experience with my torts that they can learn, respond and are unique in their personalities. Un-fuzzies affection greatly differs from fuzzies; however, I see it displayed every single day!

I was speaking in general. Most people think reptiles are in capable of these things because of having no hippocampus. I on the other hand believe differently and have frequently argued their capabilities in this forum. My job as a behavioral specialist is modification. I see many techniques used for human behavior as I do for animal behavior modification. I do believe any animal can be trained to a degree. I've seen the bond between a owner and his camen, I've seen many things in reptiles that I see in mammals. However, I do know and understand that there are and always will be some limitation to these creatures as we can't fully expect them to feel what we do emotionally. As they may experience human like emotion and feelings but it's hard to fully understand ti what degree.
 

PharSytid

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I was speaking in general. Most people think reptiles are in capable of these things because of having no hippocampus. I on the other hand believe differently and have frequently argued their capabilities in this forum. My job as a behavioral specialist is modification. I see many techniques used for human behavior as I do for animal behavior modification. I do believe any animal can be trained to a degree. I've seen the bond between a owner and his camen, I've seen many things in reptiles that I see in mammals. However, I do know and understand that there are and always will be some limitation to these creatures as we can't fully expect them to feel what we do emotionally. As they may experience human like emotion and feelings but it's hard to fully understand ti what degree.
Touché my friend- I completely agree. Thank you for expanding on your viewpoint.
 

drew54

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Touché my friend- I completely agree. Thank you for expanding on your viewpoint.
As far as not having a hippocampus reptiles brains are different, but that doesn't mean that there are other parts of the brain that controls learning, etc. Even with new brain mapping technology I doubt science will dedicate time and interest to use that expensive machine to study reptiles. So, we are left to interpret the behaviors that we see with the understanding off what we already know about reptilian behaviour.
 

McSnotoisethetortoise

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So I know this is an old thread but I have a few things to say. First, I think to say that tortoises don’t know the difference between an invader and a ball is a bit ridiculous; and I don’t know about you guys but my RF and Russian both, absolutely play. I live in Boston so during the winter we end up turning my dining room into an indoor tortoise enclosure complete with heat sinks, hides, plants, the whole nine yards - trust me when I say I spend more money on making sure it’s the right environment for (specifically) our Red-foot than I do on Chrismas, birthdays, and anniversary combined. My RF loves coming inside because he really enjoys being around things. If you sit on the floor cross-legged he’ll climb in your lap and fall asleep OR nip at your toes/hump your shoes, depending on his mood. As for play, however, we bought him a blue ball that just has a rattle inside it because we were worried that this year - since our plants died due to a bug infestation - he wouldn’t have enough enrichment. Most of the time, he ignores it; but sometimes when we aren’t around you’ll just start hearing the rattle and it’s him either poking it with his nose or walking over it again and again and again. If it gets stuck under a shelf - he’ll start pushing stuff over to draw your attention.

As for my Russian -he has a penchant for escaping his tortoise box which lives on the floor of our bedroom. He does this, apparently, so that he can play on our back packs. He’ll climb up the part that is against your back like a ramp and then sit at the top for a second like he’s pumping himself up and then launch himself down sliding down the part of the backpack that has the pockets. He’ll do loops and do it over and over again. And we ended up noticing that he only escapes if the backpacks are in view of his enclosure(he’ll push media together to climb out).

Reptile brains are not inferior to mammal - they are just different. Tortoises and reptiles have personalities and intelegence; i even read about one study where they taught some RFs to push a button on an iPad to get strawberries and the torts were able to repeat the action 6 months later. My advice is not to expect your tortoise to be a dog or a cat or a bunny. It’s a tortoise - but you should take some time to watch it and see what it likes- we ended up putting a little ramp in our Russian‘s box because, after we got a lid and he couldn’t slide down backpacks anymore, he was really lethargic until he started launching himself off the hide He had and flipping himself over every few days.
 
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