Yvonne G

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My 2 cents, not directed to any one person: If you are having a temperature gradient in a closed chamber (hot side/cool side) then something's not right with the enclosure. A closed chamber should measure the same temperature all over the whole enclosure. I keep mine between 80 and 85F. It drops slightly at night when the fluorescent light goes off, but never below 78F.
 

DeanS

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I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.
Actually, I NEVER did the dry routine! My first sulcatas went right into the kiddie pool...then into a rubbermaid tub...with literally two holes drilled into either end! I think you confused me with the idiots I got them from who9 did red lights and rabbit pellets! But, with the wealth of knowledge stored in that magnificent brain of yours...I can let it slide...a little! ;)
 

drew54

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It's maintaining correct ambient temps all throughout. It only fluctuated when I swapped the water logged substrate out for dryer coir and orchid bark all damp. Yes, it was my fault that the probe was not on top of the substrate and the thermostat wasn't registering temp on tort level and I didn't check it with my temp gun. I immediately corrected everything in the morning when I noticed it and soaked him for about two hours. My temps have never fallen below 80.

He was extremely active and ate a lot in high humidity and hot temps. The substrate was a bit swampy which he seemed to not be bothered by it. All, of this started after I changed the substrate and the temp at night got too high.

I've taken the blame on this as I believe that it was my fault. Tyler, I understand your frustrations and I know how passionate and that you care deeply for your animals. I got that through the email. I feel extremely bad and I've done nothing but try to remedy the situation.

I cam to you and this forum for help and not a replacement. I really wasn't to save this little guy and inn reading and talking to people. I just bought a be basking bulb that produces uva light to see if that helps.

I've spent countless hours trying to remedy the situation which is why I came to you for help and this forum. I'm a first time owner and I didn't get a tort on a whim. Because I'm willbtw I make mistake. I'm sorry. I didn't the best part of a year reading up on all the breeds and their care. I'm still reffing and talking to everyone I know to talk to learn more and fix this. If I can't save him then maybe I will take you up on that offer and get another one and do things differently. But I know right now I'm filled with so much guilt and sadness that I don't know if I could get another one of he doesn't make it.

I chose the closed chamber approach because I have read nothing but contradictory things everywhere. I have seen them dry and I've seen them wet. I have read hundreds and hundreds of threads, websites, exotic reptile sites, care sheets, testimony, etc just in the last few months. Over the course of the year I can't even begin to tell any of you how much research, websites, etc. I've read and the number of people I've talked to.

All of this led me to making my decision on a closed chamber. I don't mind having to check temps every 30 min or hour or whatever. It provides me and the baby with time to interact and allows me to study his behavior. So, again I came to all of you for help because at this point I'M wracking my brain trying to think of ways to fix the issue and most importantly try to diagnose the situation. I know there are conflicting ideas and I know that how the hatchlings are cared for by the breeder is important to its future as well as the owners husbandry.

I don't blame anyone but myself. I'm really trying hard here to rectify the issues at hand but it's hard to do so with two sides with different thoughts. I'm getting really confused and I'm getting really discourage. I really need everyone's help right now.
 

vladimir

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I don't blame anyone but myself. I'm really trying hard here to rectify the issues at hand but it's hard to do so with two sides with different thoughts. I'm getting really confused and I'm getting really discourage. I really need everyone's help right now.

just my opinion, but I think the focus of this thread should be more about what we can do for little Bones now, and less about where things went wrong and how we got here. Drew acknowledged that the temperature getting too high was his responsibility. I don't know how much debating the open vs closed chambers idea in this thread is going to help Bones with recovering.

@drew54 I'm rooting for you and Bones - please don't give up on the little one. Try not to be discouraged and just do everything you are capable of - nobody can ask for more than that.
 

drew54

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just my opinion, but I think the focus of this thread should be more about what we can do for little Bones now, and less about where things went wrong and how we got here. Drew acknowledged that the temperature getting too high was his responsibility. I don't know how much debating the open vs closed chambers idea in this thread is going to help Bones with recovering.

@drew54 I'm rooting for you and Bones - please don't give up on the little one. Try not to be discouraged and just do everything you are capable of - nobody can ask for more than that.
Thank you and I completely agree. I'm not giving up. I'm still researching and the vet will be in tomorrow, so I'm going to give him a call. I really do appreciate everyone and their help.
 

drew54

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So, I have found a table of symptoms. While looking through it a few things stick out.

The eyes bright and closed - over exposure to uvb

Soft spot on the plastron (no longer sunken in and a bit springy again) - mbd

Lethargy- seasonal slow down, stress, etc

Not eating- temps, stress, etc.

Haven't really noticed any other symptoms. Not sure how accurate this table is either.
 

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drew54

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What about constipation? I don't really figure that to be an issue with how much he gets soaked, but could be.
 

wellington

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You are going to never get it figuted out and right if you keep reading all kinds of info that's out on the internet and in books.
Forget it all and for this tort stick with the closed chamber as you already started with it. It's really quite easy if you do it without all the outside wrong or outdated info going thru your head.
Your uvb is not too much. Stick with the one you were using, the 10.0. Keep humidity at 80% or even higher will not hurt at all. Temps day and night need to be no lower then 80 with a basking of 95-100 this should only be under the basking spot, not any place else. Put the heating/Che on a thermostat and set it too 82-83. That will account for the few degrees accuracy error. Put lights on a timer. Get the substrate damp and keep it damp. Once the enclosure has run all day and all night with heat and humidity staying within the ranges it should be, then that's it. You don't need to check temps but once a day and not even that often if you don't feel the need.
For your tort, keep up the soaks. If you are doing them twice a day use the piedialyte in only one daily soak, carrots in either both or one. Be sure too keep him/water warm, temp of basking area is good. If you have mazuri try feeding him some and I would even try soaking it in his soak water and then mush it up completely. If you don't have mazuri, pm me your address and I will send you some too try.
Stick to only the closed chamber and the caresheet on this forum not any other, because you already started out this way.
If for he doesn't make it and you want to follow Tyler's way then do it then. Or if this guy makes a full recovery and you want to switch over too Tyler's way, that's the time too do it. Not now.
 

wellington

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Also, give yourself a break. You didn't make this guy sick on purpose. I don't think you made him sick at all in my opinion. The peaked temp wasn't all that high and not all that long. Btw, usually if they are too hot and can't walk out of the heat they will try too dig down into the cooler substrate. A good reason to always have a good thick substrate. No less then 2 inches and more is better.
 

Minority2

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I don't know that anyone can answer these. In every case I can think of, there are multiple variables, and the vast majority of cases are uncountable for each of your scenarios. Further, what do you consider success for the purposes of this discussion? @Markw84, @DeanS , me, and many others did the dry/dry routine for many years. None of mine ever died, but I certainly wouldn't call those results "success". I've done the dry/humid routine several times and had zero problems, except the ones that were hatched and started on perlite. Some of them had their intestinal tracts lined with perlite and died. Others in that group seem to have not ingested perlite, or they passed it, and they are fine to this day, six years later. I know of no one starting humid and then going dry. Maybe Tyler himself could answer that one. I think he has done that. As for humid/humid, I have had 100% success with all that I have hatched from all species and multiple generations now. Zero problems of any kind. Its simple, easy, works fantastically, and anyone can duplicate it anywhere in the world.

One of the topics being used in this thread is "failure hatchling syndrome". I believe this concept may not be entirely sound for this particular situation. I am also not saying that @drew54 is in any part responsible because none of us is can really make that claim without being physically there and seeing what @drew54 is experiencing thorough this entire situation.

My wording was not very on point I agree. My believe is that there may be a possibility in that the period of introducing a medium to low humidity started tortoise into a very high humid close chamber enclosure may also be one of contributing factors to why a young tortoise may not grow, thrive, and adapt.

It is hard to obtain these types of data from breeders and owners because the level of care and other external variables are uncontrollable as you say. My example question were not specific nor were they directed at any particular periods of study.

The questions should have been written to focus on a young tortoise's lungs, their initial care conditions vs the care conditions given by the customer/new owner, and the impact such changes can cause to the tortoise. But even that description requires further formatting before one can even attempt to come up with a proper outline proposal for a field or research study.

I just saw in the other thread "poor Bones" this quote:



So there was a 113 degree temperature within the closed chamber with little ability to escape the closed chamber. Knowing it was cooked, I am still offering a replacement tortoise at no cost other than shipping. Why the breeder is questioned or blamed when this stuff happens is beyond me.



I can't answer this one because I've never raised a tortoise in a dry condition. Ours are anything but dry; we just don't force ultra high humidity on them. There's no way to measure a long term success rate when 95% of them are shipped off within 6 months (from me or anyone else). In the ones I've kept, we have perfect results.

When I have set up humid chambers, it was too much babysitting for me, too much of a pain to have to guarantee the temps didn't creep down, so I just didn't bother. I didn't see the benefits of doing that over what I was doing anyways.

@TylerStewart If you have the time, can you explain what you mean by anything but dry? I'm curious as to how you're able to raise the humidity levels of your indoor and outdoor enclosures in Las Vegas where the humidity level do not often reach above 40-45%.

@drew54 stick with the current closed chamber and follow Tom's care sheet guidelines. Swapping to different conditions back and forth will do no good.
 

TylerStewart

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If you have the time, can you explain what you mean by anything but dry? I'm curious as to how you're able to raise the humidity levels of your indoor and outdoor enclosures in Las Vegas where the humidity level do not often reach above 40-45%.

Keeping moisture in the substrate will keep humidity in the moderate range at tortoise-level. Keeping the substrate moist and then putting a ceramic or plastic cave with a small opening over it will keep the humidity high inside that hide where tortoises spend a lot of time. The air 6 inches above that is very dry in Las Vegas, but the air 6 inches above tortoise level doesn't really mean anything to the tortoise. A typical enclosure of babies we dump 1/4 gallon of water a day in to, usually over the hide, but it spreads to the surrounding soil. It's never dry dry in the enclosure other than maybe right under the heat light (which we splash a few times a week also, but it dries up much faster than the hide area). The surface of the substrate is usually dry at the very top, with moisture 1/4" below that. Babies spend 70-80% of their day either in the humid hide or burrowed into the moist substrate (which would also be 80%+ humidity).

Outdoor enclosures here do stay pretty dry, but those are typically adult tortoises that can handle it (and we primarily keep desert/arid species here). We have raised testudo outdoors since hatching, and you'd be shocked to see how smooth they are. They grow pretty slowly, and fade (darken) with the sun, but they grow smooth and hard as a rock. They as outdoor babies spend a lot of time burrowed in to the root balls of plants that hold water (like they would in the wild). All the outdoor tortoises have hidebox areas with sand under them that we spray water in to at least 3-4 times a week during the warm months. It has an evaporative cooling effect in there that lasts for 1-2 days.
 

drew54

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Is that area circled supposed to budge a little?
 

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wellington

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Is that area circled supposed to budge a little?
Looks like he wants too poop. When you soak him make sure it's in something big enough so he can move around. Warm soaks and movement will help the poop move along easier. Try feeding some head lettuce, cucumber not the seeds, insides of a cactus pad, watery foods to also help any poop that might not be moving along.
It's normally poofy when they need too poop. Otherwise it usually isn't.
 

drew54

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His soaks are warm in good size container plenty of room to move. I just cant get him to move or eat. He is soaking at this moment.
 

drew54

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He didn’t make it. I think because the temp got too hot that night it had did some irreversible damage to his internal organs. I have since that night corrected my mistake. The first ever animal that I had gotten attached to and one mistake killed him. I feel terrible about it. I'll still be on the forum as I continue to monitor my enclosure temps for a while and make whatever necessary changes. I was going to build his larger enclosure this weekend and then that happened and my car messed up again. I know everyone doesn't agree with Tyler's methods, but I'm convinced this was all my fault and that he was a happy healthy baby before I messed up. thank you for checking up it means a lot.
 

vladimir

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He didn’t make it. I think because the temp got too hot that night it had did some irreversible damage to his internal organs. I have since that night corrected my mistake. The first ever animal that I had gotten attached to and one mistake killed him. I feel terrible about it. I'll still be on the forum as I continue to monitor my enclosure temps for a while and make whatever necessary changes. I was going to build his larger enclosure this weekend and then that happened and my car messed up again. I know everyone doesn't agree with Tyler's methods, but I'm convinced this was all my fault and that he was a happy healthy baby before I messed up. thank you for checking up it means a lot.
I'm so so sorry. I hope when you're ready you can have another tortoise to help fill the void [emoji45]
 

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