Angulata outside?

Koen

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HI Everyone,

Is there anybody here who reside in Europe and keep Angulata's outdoors or who has an opinion of keeping Angulata's outside? I do live in Belgium and not in the South of Italy though so temps can get chilly here.

I am expecting 1 in April and have been reading about them and read that their activity range is between 15 and 29C which doesn't deviate too much from Hermans, which i do keep permanently outside with a heated greenhouse.

Just wondering and trying to learn :)

Thanks!
 

Yvonne G

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Sorry. . . I know nothing about angulata. And we don't have too many Belgium members. I'd love to see pictures of your greenhouse.
 

Koen

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Hi Yvonne,

This is one of my enclosures where some Western Hermans reside. Built the greenhouse myself. In the greenhouse there is an insulated box were they spend the night and hibernate so they spend their times there all year round.

Still haven't bought the Angulata though. There were some available in Germany but from a clutch of 6, 5 died within to months so hold of those.
 

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tortadise

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I have a friend that lives in the Netherlands also another in Germany. During the summer they take them out for short excerise and natural sun. However these are captive bred specimens and have a much higher tolerance for conditions in environmental changes. We acquired a small group 4 years ago and they perished when placed outside. The indoor ones are still thriving and doing very well. I’d say moving any species of tortoise or turtle is stressful indeed. But conditions of captive offspring can allow the tolerance of “trying to survive” (which is what all Chelonia are wired to do in a nutshell) is much less of a concern when handled, moved, or exposed to an outdoor environment versus indoors. Especially somewhat sensitive species(wildcollected at least in angulata)

@juli11 maybe some eauropean I out from you as well?
 

Koen

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Thanks for pointing this out and that is the reason why I am trying to understand whether it would be possible to keep them outside for the majority of the time, let's say from April to October. To allow them more space, expose to natural sunshine, allow them to naturally behave etc.

If I look at weather models and historical weather in Cape Town or Dassen Island e.g, Temperatures and humidity can vary quit a bit during seasons, a bit like the mediterranean which is the origin of most of my tortoise and those reside outside permanently were I can provide them with more space to roam about, insulated nightbox and heated greenhouse.

I have also understand that the Angulata's are capable of hibernation as well although I don't know anybody who actually allows them in captivity and that is the reason why I am trying to understand whether it would be possible to keep them outside here in Western Europe - Belgium but there is very limited amount of information or research available.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Koen
 

CarolM

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Thanks for pointing this out and that is the reason why I am trying to understand whether it would be possible to keep them outside for the majority of the time, let's say from April to October. To allow them more space, expose to natural sunshine, allow them to naturally behave etc.

If I look at weather models and historical weather in Cape Town or Dassen Island e.g, Temperatures and humidity can vary quit a bit during seasons, a bit like the mediterranean which is the origin of most of my tortoise and those reside outside permanently were I can provide them with more space to roam about, insulated nightbox and heated greenhouse.

I have also understand that the Angulata's are capable of hibernation as well although I don't know anybody who actually allows them in captivity and that is the reason why I am trying to understand whether it would be possible to keep them outside here in Western Europe - Belgium but there is very limited amount of information or research available.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Koen
Hi I live in Cape Town and have 2 adult Angulata who live outside in my garden permanently. The male does sort of hibernate in winter in that you hardly ever see him in winter but he does come out when it is sunny. The female slows down but does not really hibernate. I also have 4 babies between 4months and 14 months old. But I have kept them indoors and will only put them outside for long periods once they are alot bigger and older. I keep the babies using Tom's monsoon method and can see a huge difference in how they look. The 14month baby is much smaller with slight pyramiding from me keeping s/he in an open top table under dry conditions in the beginning. The other three whom i have raised completely under the monsoon conditions are growing much much faster and alot smoother than the 14 month old. Personally ( and I have not been at this long nor am I an expert) I would not keep babies outside for long periods and as I plan to do, when they are about 2 - 3 years old and or a decent size, I would slowly acclimatise them to longer periods outside ( the babies currently spend about an hour outside weather permitting everyday). However I am presuming you get snow in winter and we don't get that cold here, so not sure if they would be able to handle those temps outside. Hope this gives you a little more info. If you would like to see how my babies are doing my thread is called " Kang and Rue".

Edit. I see you will have an insulated night box and greenhouse, I would still not keep them outside when they are hatchlings. But wait and see what the experts say first.

@Sterant. @HermanniChris. Are a few names that come to mind who are also raising Angulata/ Bowsprit's.
 

CarolM

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Hi I live in Cape Town and have 2 adult Angulata who live outside in my garden permanently. The male does sort of hibernate in winter in that you hardly ever see him in winter but he does come out when it is sunny. The female slows down but does not really hibernate. I also have 4 babies between 4months and 14 months old. But I have kept them indoors and will only put them outside for long periods once they are alot bigger and older. I keep the babies using Tom's monsoon method and can see a huge difference in how they look. The 14month baby is much smaller with slight pyramiding from me keeping s/he in an open top table under dry conditions in the beginning. The other three whom i have raised completely under the monsoon conditions are growing much much faster and alot smoother than the 14 month old. Personally ( and I have not been at this long nor am I an expert) I would not keep babies outside for long periods and as I plan to do, when they are about 2 - 3 years old and or a decent size, I would slowly acclimatise them to longer periods outside ( the babies currently spend about an hour outside weather permitting everyday). However I am presuming you get snow in winter and we don't get that cold here, so not sure if they would be able to handle those temps outside. Hope this gives you a little more info. If you would like to see how my babies are doing my thread is called " Kang and Rue".

Edit. I see you will have an insulated night box and greenhouse, I would still not keep them outside when they are hatchlings. But wait and see what the experts say first.

@Sterant. @HermanniChris. Are a few names that come to mind who are also raising Angulata/ Bowsprit's.
P.s. There is a section for Bowsprit tortoises where you can ask your question and may get a better response. I will be very interested in following your posts if you do get the Angulata as there are very little of us on the forum who have these special tortoises. [emoji3]
 

Tom

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Hi I live in Cape Town and have 2 adult Angulata who live outside in my garden permanently. The male does sort of hibernate in winter in that you hardly ever see him in winter but he does come out when it is sunny. The female slows down but does not really hibernate. I also have 4 babies between 4months and 14 months old. But I have kept them indoors and will only put them outside for long periods once they are alot bigger and older. I keep the babies using Tom's monsoon method and can see a huge difference in how they look. The 14month baby is much smaller with slight pyramiding from me keeping s/he in an open top table under dry conditions in the beginning. The other three whom i have raised completely under the monsoon conditions are growing much much faster and alot smoother than the 14 month old. Personally ( and I have not been at this long nor am I an expert) I would not keep babies outside for long periods and as I plan to do, when they are about 2 - 3 years old and or a decent size, I would slowly acclimatise them to longer periods outside ( the babies currently spend about an hour outside weather permitting everyday). However I am presuming you get snow in winter and we don't get that cold here, so not sure if they would be able to handle those temps outside. Hope this gives you a little more info. If you would like to see how my babies are doing my thread is called " Kang and Rue".

Edit. I see you will have an insulated night box and greenhouse, I would still not keep them outside when they are hatchlings. But wait and see what the experts say first.

@Sterant. @HermanniChris. Are a few names that come to mind who are also raising Angulata/ Bowsprit's.
Carol, the experience you've explained here is priceless to me. No one over here seems to agree on how to raise them. Some say outside with no help in the right climate, some say inside only, and there has been so much discouraging failure doing it every which way, with a few bright spots of success. Seeing the results of you doing it two different ways over there is inexplicably useful and helpful. Thank you a million times for sharing this here.
 

HermanniChris

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I attempted to House my adults outdoors but I didn’t feel it was going well. The animals began to shut down. It’s been 90s and crazy humidity and they seemed to not care for it even though I’m right on the coast. They’re back inside and thriving now. I put the baby out here and there but always bring it back in. We successfully raise various types of Testudo outside right from day 1 here without any single issue but these guys just don’t seem to take it well. Perhaps I’m too paranoid and they need more time to settle in to the outdoors but for now I’m not willing to chance it. Here’s a shot of the baby, now almost 4 months old outdoors briefly today. final.jpg
 

Sterant

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HI Everyone,

Is there anybody here who reside in Europe and keep Angulata's outdoors or who has an opinion of keeping Angulata's outside? I do live in Belgium and not in the South of Italy though so temps can get chilly here.

Just wondering and trying to learn :)

Thanks!

I don't live in Europe, but I have been keeping all of my angulata outdoors 24x7 since late May. I live in upstate New York where the humidity is generally low but we get stretches, usually a few days long, where it can get very hot (95) and very humid (75% to 95%RH at 95 degrees) primarily during July and August.

What I do is bring them inside during the humid stretches, and put them back outside as soon as I can. I have absolutely noticed an increase in activity and a more natural behavior pattern when they are outside.....as you would expect with any tortoise. In addition, I have also noticed a lethargy outdoors during excessively humid weather. Indoors I run a dehumidifier/air conditioner in the room, and I individually heat the enclosures. This gives me the warm dry results I want.

My mix of animals is not like the (very few) other keepers in the US. One of my adult males is CB and was raised outdoors in Atlanta which is very hot and humid in the summers. 2 of my females , though WC, have lived outside 24x7 year round in the San Diego, CA area for the past 12 years. They are certainly well adjusted to the outdoors, but San Diego is an ideal climate for them....Atlanta - not so much, but that one is CB. My other angulata are WC.

Historically, the angulata in the US, other than a very few CB animals produced here, are all wild caught. I have heard many stories where wild caught animals die rather quickly when exposed to humid environments. Some from respiratory issues, some from incurable skin lesions. I have heard this enough times, from people I know and trust, that I accept it as fact even though I have not personally experienced it (thankfully).

For what its worth - this is my suggestion. If you can get the animals outside, do it.....as long as the temperatures are satisfactory (between 65 and 90f during the day and above 45f at night) and the dew point is below 50 degrees F. Dew point is a much better metric than RH.

You can see some of my (and other members of the Working Group's) animals here:

http://www.chersina.org

Dan
 

CarolM

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Carol, the experience you've explained here is priceless to me. No one over here seems to agree on how to raise them. Some say outside with no help in the right climate, some say inside only, and there has been so much discouraging failure doing it every which way, with a few bright spots of success. Seeing the results of you doing it two different ways over there is inexplicably useful and helpful. Thank you a million times for sharing this here.
Always Tom. It is thanks to you guys that I am able to make sure that I am doing right by my little ones. And it is always about them and not us. And your way has worked best for me and my little ones. And thank you for saying what you did above. Encouragement is always appreciated.
 

CarolM

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I attempted to House my adults outdoors but I didn’t feel it was going well. The animals began to shut down. It’s been 90s and crazy humidity and they seemed to not care for it even though I’m right on the coast. They’re back inside and thriving now. I put the baby out here and there but always bring it back in. We successfully raise various types of Testudo outside right from day 1 here without any single issue but these guys just don’t seem to take it well. Perhaps I’m too paranoid and they need more time to settle in to the outdoors but for now I’m not willing to chance it. Here’s a shot of the baby, now almost 4 months old outdoors briefly today. View attachment 244898
Ayanda is gorgeous as always.[emoji3]
 

CarolM

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I don't live in Europe, but I have been keeping all of my angulata outdoors 24x7 since late May. I live in upstate New York where the humidity is generally low but we get stretches, usually a few days long, where it can get very hot (95) and very humid (75% to 95%RH at 95 degrees) primarily during July and August.

What I do is bring them inside during the humid stretches, and put them back outside as soon as I can. I have absolutely noticed an increase in activity and a more natural behavior pattern when they are outside.....as you would expect with any tortoise. In addition, I have also noticed a lethargy outdoors during excessively humid weather. Indoors I run a dehumidifier/air conditioner in the room, and I individually heat the enclosures. This gives me the warm dry results I want.

My mix of animals is not like the (very few) other keepers in the US. One of my adult males is CB and was raised outdoors in Atlanta which is very hot and humid in the summers. 2 of my females , though WC, have lived outside 24x7 year round in the San Diego, CA area for the past 12 years. They are certainly well adjusted to the outdoors, but San Diego is an ideal climate for them....Atlanta - not so much, but that one is CB. My other angulata are WC.

Historically, the angulata in the US, other than a very few CB animals produced here, are all wild caught. I have heard many stories where wild caught animals die rather quickly when exposed to humid environments. Some from respiratory issues, some from incurable skin lesions. I have heard this enough times, from people I know and trust, that I accept it as fact even though I have not personally experienced it (thankfully).

For what its worth - this is my suggestion. If you can get the animals outside, do it.....as long as the temperatures are satisfactory (between 65 and 90f during the day and above 45f at night) and the dew point is below 50 degrees F. Dew point is a much better metric than RH.

You can see some of my (and other members of the Working Group's) animals here:

http://www.chersina.org

Dan
Hi Dan,
I think you should update the website with a better picture of Rue's plastron. In fact you could also add pics of Kang, Clark and Harry as well. If you do want to do that, let me know and I will send you pics without the little stickers on them. The website still looks good and quite informative. As always, your input is very much appreciated.

Carol
 

HermanniChris

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@Sterant can vouch for how hot and humid it can be by me, and that wasn’t even a bad day, Dan!
Interestingly, most species do great outdoors here, however, I’ve had issues with leopard tortoises outdoors here in the past and just recently we moved our North African T. graeca graeca back indoors due to similar reasons to our angulata. To contrast this, another North African rare and sensitive species, our Testudo graeca nabeulensis, are doing very well outdoors but just like Dan’s male CB angulata, they are doing well out there.

Maybe I’ll rework some things or at least try Ayanda out for a bit but it definitely seems as though some African species cannot handle southern coastal NJ.
 

Sterant

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@Sterant can vouch for how hot and humid it can be by me, and that wasn’t even a bad day, Dan!
Interestingly, most species do great outdoors here, however, I’ve had issues with leopard tortoises outdoors here in the past and just recently we moved our North African T. graeca graeca back indoors due to similar reasons to our angulata. To contrast this, another North African rare and sensitive species, our Testudo graeca nabeulensis, are doing very well outdoors but just like Dan’s male CB angulata, they are doing well out there.

Maybe I’ll rework some things or at least try Ayanda out for a bit but it definitely seems as though some African species cannot handle southern coastal NJ.
Agreed. The humidity there (on that one day) seemed higher than I experience even on an extreme day here in NY. Assuming its the coastal influence. Unfortunately, this is seeming like a species whose care regimen is going to be very dependent on where the keeper lives. it would be nice to have a catch-all care sheet, but I think its going to be more complicated than that. It will be interesting to see how Ayanda handle your conditions after being raised in them. If my male is any indication, she will adjust to it and be fine.
 

Sterant

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Hi Dan,
I think you should update the website with a better picture of Rue's plastron. In fact you could also add pics of Kang, Clark and Harry as well. If you do want to do that, let me know and I will send you pics without the little stickers on them. The website still looks good and quite informative. As always, your input is very much appreciated.

Carol
Hi Carol - yes please. Send me new pics and I will upload them. I have a bunch of my own I need to put up as well. Thanks as always - Dan
 

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