Yes, but included were box and the gopher. That was just one site, one article. Reptile Magazine I think. I can't find anything that says counting rings to be anything other then a guesstimated tool basically, but not a reliable accurate one.
How do you tell the age of a tortoise?
- Thread starter Octavious22
- Start date
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 491
I seem to have caused offense. I meant none in the delivery of my response and am sorry.
There is also the suitability of the environment to consider. This would effect how the tort grows.
No, no, no offense taken and no need to apologize. A friendly discussion going on here. Sorry if I came off as if offended.
I might add, I understand a lot of info on the internet is wrong or outdated. It's all I have to go on. The only WC I have is a Russian and I have no idea his age or how long he was in captivity before I got him.
As for ring counting on my others, that yes are leopards and all CB, the ring counting really doesn't work. I don't have any over 8 years and the growth rings put them way over. I did a quick count on a couple of them.
As for ring counting on my others, that yes are leopards and all CB, the ring counting really doesn't work. I don't have any over 8 years and the growth rings put them way over. I did a quick count on a couple of them.
I must have spent way too much time watching tortoises grow!! I do agree it is very difficult to see a lot of the time. I also agree this is just fun conversation!!
But I just looked for a picture of a leopard I could use and see the way I look at it. I remembered this thread by @Elohi on her dark hatchling where she showed pictures of the parents. The male is a good example of one you absolutely cannot tell. But the female, I can make a pretty good guess and perhaps Elohi can confrim the age.
Also - I agree completely this is only good to "guesstimate". It is not exact. But it can often give a good idea within a few years. Obviously cannot work on very worn or tortoises much over 20 years.
My guess here is 9 years old... @Elohi ?????
I agree with what you are all saying about growth rings coinciding with an annual climate. Sounds logical, 9 months of active wet season and 3 months of dormant dry period gives one annuli.
I have one question to add. Why does my 4 yr old have growth rings when I offer a year round wet season, does this suggest there is a bodily growth pattern aswell as a climate growth pattern?
I have one question to add. Why does my 4 yr old have growth rings when I offer a year round wet season, does this suggest there is a bodily growth pattern aswell as a climate growth pattern?
Craig. I really have spent too much time watching tortoises grow and looking at keratin forming and pyramiding starting... You are one I would probably say has done the same!!
I do believe we see minor ridges form during a season with growth spurts / illness etc. But I feel I still can see a more prominent yearly pattern that almost always shows as well... Really nice growth and fast growth the second year.
I do believe we see minor ridges form during a season with growth spurts / illness etc. But I feel I still can see a more prominent yearly pattern that almost always shows as well... Really nice growth and fast growth the second year.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 491
This is a tough one for me to take an accurate count on. Fading eyesight and distracted by the lovely color and beautiful starburst patterning.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 491
Agree. Very uniform growth as well. A beautiful specimen. A credit to Craig's skill.
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2011
- Messages
- 491
I once had a friend return from a vet visit with the older tortoise family pet he had for maybe twenty years. He reported that the vet had treated his prized pet and announced with great pride that the vet advised him that the tortoise was exactly fifty-two years old. No matter how I tried to explain that pinpointing the age of a tortoise with that level of surety and degree of accuracy was highly unlikely, I could not shake his confidence in the vet's assessment and he went right on believing it from that day forward.
In another discussion of how to determine how old a turtle was, I was advised with great authority by a co-worker that the only way to be completely sure was to count the marginal scutes around the border of the shell. I told him I agreed with him completely and it was beyond me how people came up with the crazy idea that turtles and tortoises were long-lived animals. Most live very short lives and are dead before their twenty-fifth birthday.
In another discussion of how to determine how old a turtle was, I was advised with great authority by a co-worker that the only way to be completely sure was to count the marginal scutes around the border of the shell. I told him I agreed with him completely and it was beyond me how people came up with the crazy idea that turtles and tortoises were long-lived animals. Most live very short lives and are dead before their twenty-fifth birthday.
Reminds me of a quote that is in my mind with the passing of Stephen Hawking:
“The biggest threat to knowledge is not ignorance. It is the illusion of knowledge”
@Markw84 in your sulcata pic there are many many lines that you are not counting. They can be more easily seen in the corners of the scutes where time, weather and the elements have not worn them down as much. You are counting only the largest, most prominent and most evenly spaced raised portions. The question is, are those raised portions a result of seasonal weather, growth spurts, dry spells, slow growth times, some other factor, or, are those "rings" you marked and counted something that happens like clockwork every year, regardless of weather, food, moisture, etc…? We know that babies will show lots of rings in their first year, and I can see lot of rings on your tortoise. So what is it that is causing those more prominent raised rings in your tortoise, when compared to the less prominent rings that are not being counted?
@Destben pointed out the 9 prominent growth lines in his 7 month old tortoise. When his tortoise is 20 years old, what will the current 9 growth rings look like? Will one larger ring form at the end of his tortoises first year, like the ones we see on your sulcata?
Also, in both Craig's and Elohi's pics, you've made arrows at some lines but not others. I'm trying to figure out why your are counting some of those lines, but not counting other seemingly similar lines.
@Destben pointed out the 9 prominent growth lines in his 7 month old tortoise. When his tortoise is 20 years old, what will the current 9 growth rings look like? Will one larger ring form at the end of his tortoises first year, like the ones we see on your sulcata?
Also, in both Craig's and Elohi's pics, you've made arrows at some lines but not others. I'm trying to figure out why your are counting some of those lines, but not counting other seemingly similar lines.
Last edited:
That is just Barb. She's not offended. If you ever met her face to face, you'd understand what I mean better. She's a really nice person, and sometimes her words can seem a little "short". I'm far worse than her. My words are taken the wrong way frequently.
I also found nothing offensive about your post.
I see where your coming from Mark, and I'm trying to relate that to how fast she grew. Also I was forgetting that even tortoises in a closed system enclosures slow down with eating during winter months.(high/low pressures maybe), so that in theory could create growth lines. However you've marked the horizontal lines below the areola and could be correct. But what about the vertical lines adjacent to the areola. There are way more than 4 prominent growth lines.
I think the lighting is making the '2nd yr' look smoother than it actually is.
My observations and experiences have lead me to believe that most tortoises, even those in captivity do have an annual cycle to growth. If we are perfect at creating identical conditions throughout the year, this becomes less and less noticeable. But, No matter what we do, there is a change in day length that effects ambient light - brightness and color which includes UV light which they see. Cooler average temperatures also effect the average temperature in our enclosures, even with the thermostats. The availability of best foods we can offer change over the year. Perhaps barometric pressure dips. Metabolic energy devoted more to breeding. Etc, etc,. Most all tortoises seem to have a period where they slow down growth substantially. While this happens, I theorize keratin production slows down, and bone growth slows and/or stops much quicker. Bone growth takes a bit more metabolic acitvity/energy than keratin growth. So, the slowing keratin growth stacks a bit at the seam since there is no corresponding spreading of bone plates. When a growth spurt starts again, the bone growth again starts to separate the scute seams and the keratin fills in following that growth at a "normal level". A ridge is left behind.
In watching these form, I see minor rings constantly produced throughout the year with the variations in growth rate a tortoise can go through. As I weight and graph growth monthly, I can see when a tortoise goes into a stubborn growth period, a minor ring develop. When a growth spurt happens I can see that minor ridge left behind. I believe bone growth stops and starts and keratin growth reacts to this but not as quickly.
So in counting and guessing what are annual rings vs the minor rings is an educated guess! My observations have been that if you look at the overall pattern of several adjacent rings, you can see the deeper, more prominent rings stand out a bit.
The type of tortoise seems to effect how visible this is. That is why I thought it would be interesting to look at a well kept captive leopard. Sulcatas have the most pronounced rings, as you can see in my picture. That also means they develop minor rings easily as well. Leopards seem to not develop as deep a ring. Sometimes very hard to see. Shell wear in wild leopards also seems to erase rings rapidly as well. So I thought it would be fun to try to guess at @Elohi 's female as it was captive raised, by a great keeper, and old enough to be laying. You can see how much less obvious growth rings are on that tortoise. Also how uniform the growth appears to be. But I can still pick out what appears to be 9 distinctive ridges that stand out to me.
There is nothing exact about it. But I do firmly believe we can learn a lot about a tortoise, looking at how its shell has grown. I do think it is fun and has value in estimating age in many cases.
Would be interesting to know if this would disappear completely in an ideal environment.
In experimental conditions without any means to tell time, humans and animals continue to have a (nearly) 24h rhythm. Maybe we have not only a circadian clock but also an annual clock in our genetic information?
Okay guys thank to all who replied it was very helpful. Here are a few more pictures of the torts 
They are beautiful RF.
